Keep in mind some of the passives that will make it really good in Shadowlands, like 20% more Obliterate damage and KM Obliterates being Frost damage, will come after leveling up.
Locutus hereā¦
Sayingā¦
I KNEW IT.
1 Like
STOP: UPDATING CHARACTER.
I knew they'd add MotFW back.
There is still a fundamental problem with 2h Frost with less AAs and one missing runeforge. But hey, this is a step towards a right direction.
1 Like
Would Blizzard allowing 2 runeforges on 2 handed weapons help balance this issue or tip the scale too far the other way?
The whole point of the obliterate buff on 2h is to compensate for the lack of a second runeforge.
- Developersā notes: Our goal here is to bridge the gap of the proc discrepancy between DW and 2H, as well as giving 2-Handed Frost its own passive ability to make up the difference of not having two runeforge enchants.
They could always buff or nerf the increased damage or proc rate to help balance. Maths right now is kinda pointless because numbers of everything will change as tuning passes are done before release.
5 Likes
25% additive increased Obliterate damage, āmoreā KM and RA procs, 15% strength multiplier XOR 15% more Frost damage is not going to compete well against consistent KM and RA Procs, 15% strength multiplier AND 15% more Frost damage.
The obliterate buff is just simply not good enough as it had issues to begin with when it had 85% damage increase on Obliterate and 35% on everything else.
They really need to come up witha runeforge thatās something exclusive to 2h that is competitive against 15% more Strength and Frost Damage.
1 Like
Just considering current damage breakdown, Iāve seen numbers as high as ~60% obliterate damage. A 25% increase on that is a total 15% damage increase.
These numbers are very rough but it just shows the significance of the 25%. Again Iād like to emphasize that itās still early and itās difficult to say how 2H obliteration Will perform Vs DW builds.
2 Likes
For instance, itās unclear how much 2H KM proc chance has been increased. Iāve seen evidence that says itās not 100% on auto crits.
Even at 100% of auto crits, that would still put 2H behind DW in terms of Killing Machine procs and actual damage output (from KM), no? They would have to nerf baseline Killing Machine to balance it, and ābridge the gap.ā
At 100% of auto crits, 2H procs KM 28% less than DW, making the damage output form KM procs alone 10% less for 2H. However, youāll probably run the Obliteration talent which increases the amount of KM procs for both playstyles (the fractional gain depends on haste and crit levels). This will change the relative output from KM procs alone between 2H and DW in 2Hās favour.
This completely disregards the fact that you have lots of normal Obliterates in a fight, where 2H does 25% more. Itās tricky and I currently canāt test/ math it out exactly.
1 Like
Would be the opposite actually. Donāt stop making changes, is what I was getting at.
Sorry, it came across different. 
Just throw an idea out as I sit at this pool. What about if KM was a 100% proc on crit for 2hander and also 25% chance to proc on normal swings.
Then introduce a ppm cap on the normal swing proc chance to stop haste stacking and cheesing overload.
There probably are glaring problems with this Suggestion, but Iām too busy having fun OUTSIDE (Ohhhh the horror) to think of them at the MOMENT.
1 Like
Well, if DW also takes obliteration, how exactly would that be in favor of 2h? You would get more procs outside of Obliteration with DW, and the same amount inside depending on how well you can play the talent.
If you dont take Venthyr for the long Breath windows for DW, you are going Obliteration since the secondaries wont be there yet for Icecap. Breath will be balanced for those long windows which is another can of balance worms.
Also, they wouldnt have it at 100% chance on auto crit because that just opens up issues later on down the line.
DW can also get half crits on obliterate and frost strike which 2h cant get. Its either a crit, or its not while DW can either crit fully, not crit fully, main hand crit, or offhand crit each time you push obliterate or frost strike since they are technically 2 hits for each ability.
I hate you. By which i mean Iām green w/envy!
1 Like
Not exactly sure what issues? Mind elaborating.
Obliteration is good for 2H for the following reason:
Imagine not picking obliteration for 2H and DW. 2H gets 10 KM procs, DW gets 14.
Now you pick obliteration. Both builds gain a set of amount of procs, letās say 10, making it 20 vs 24 in total. From having 40% more KM procs, DW now only has 20%. Since 2H gets more damage from KM procs, itās now relatively better compared to DW.
You can think of obliteration as the following: Gain X extra KM procs in your rotation. Who benefits the most from that? Itās 2H. Itās not exactly that since you will overlap some KM procs during your PoF window. Itās more like: Gain X KM procs and lose 30% of your passive ones, which benefits 2H even more.
8 Likes
Everyone liked that!
Only better if you look at KM though. To trigger obliteration DW is getting 15% on everything while 2h is getting 25% only on a singular ability. So its still better for DW because the spec is not one singular ability.
If you just look at Obliterate then you just miss all the other damage that DW is getting that 2h just isnt. So while it might bring down the % difference to a closer level, its still better to have DW overall.
Obliteration is not just more KM procs. You have to use 1 of 2 abilities that deal frost damage and DW is going to get 15% increase in those as well as Obliterate. Its also dependent on how well you set up for it to get the maximum out of the window. Having a narrow window is not a good thing. I would much rather have 15% damage on all abilities than 25% on one.
So Obliteration is still better for DW, and if the Breath Build is better than that then the change really doesnt do much of anything. It doesnt attempt to bridge the gap due to runeforge disparity. I dont see how anyone can think 1 ability getting a damage boost is better than the entire spec getting a damage boost.
Discussion was about Obliteration, not 2H vs DW overall.
Again, irrelevant in this discussion. Weāre discussing the value that Obliteration gives to 2H and DW.
Obliteration is pretty much exactly more KM procs.
Hard to say atm, could be that DW obliteration is better. Important thing is that 2H gains more from Obliteration than what DW does, thatās the whole point I was making.
11 Likes
So I did some controlled testing on the PTR. Removed neck piece and trinkets.
DW Frost is approximately ahead by 15% on single targets and approximately 30% ahead on 3 targets.
DW: IA, RA, FP, GS, Icecap
2H: IA, ME, Avalanche, GS, Obliteration
I did not test BoS because I can not stand that ability.