Might of the Frozen Wastes is back

Kelliste-antonidas · August 21, 2020, 4:46pm

The attack power % are really close. 88.8% vs ((60+(60/2)) which is 90%. Might be that way because 2h has slightly more weapon dps that gets calculated into it.

Bicepspump-galakrond · August 21, 2020, 4:48pm

This just comes back to previous discussion. Frost dmg on KM procs makes obliterate a larger % of you overall dmg. Example to really make this clear:

Let’s start by saying that 2H/ DW deals 100 damage, without both might and KM 58 spell. 50 of this damage comes from Obliterate. With the KM 58 spell, 2H now deals 120 damage, 70 of that comes from Obliterate. This is a 20% increase.

Now let’s consider might in this scenario. Initially, 2H deals 100 + 0.25 x 50 = 112.5 damage. We add in the 58 spell, it now deals: 120 + 0.25 x 70 = 137.5 damage. This damage increase from gaining the 58 spell is now 22.2%.

So without considering might, aka DW, you gain 20% damage. With might, aka 2H, you gain 22.2%.

22.2% is more than 20%.

Kelliste-antonidas · August 21, 2020, 4:58pm

So obliterate does 50 damage… or is it doing 100 damage?

Locûtus-kelthuzad · August 21, 2020, 5:03pm

Ye, my math is now wonky because of tooltip lies to me now.

Bicepspump-galakrond · August 21, 2020, 5:04pm

Very clearly states that obliterate is doing 50 out of 100 damage before considering KM 58.

Kelliste-antonidas · August 21, 2020, 5:18pm

So are you saying the enemy has 50% armor, or… there is too much information missing here for it to actually make any sense.

KM makes Obliterate a crit right? KM rank 2 turns it into frost damage so it bypasses armor and is also a crit.

So lets actually unpack this.
Both 2h and DW deals 100 damage
50 of that damage is Obliterate so Obliterate does 50 damage (assuming 0 armor)
The other 50 damage is misc damage.
KM rank 2 makes obliterate deal 100 damage for 2h and DW will have razorice right? Or are we just going on the basis there are no runeforges even though might is supposed to be the answer to DW having an extra runeforge? DW would do 115 damage in that case.

Now if we consider might in this. Thats 50 with a 25% increase making it 62.6 damage from obliterate while DW does 50 damage. With KM rank 2 that means 2h does 125 damage and DW does 115 damage and that is an 8.33% difference.

Bicepspump-galakrond · August 21, 2020, 5:26pm

I thought my example was simple enough, but let me clarify.

We consider a spec, doesn’t matter if 2H or DW, and see what happens when we add KM58 and MoTFW. The idea here is to figure out how MoTFW changes the value that KM58 adds.

We start off simple. We do 100 dps. 50 out of that 100 dps comes from Obliterate. KM58 will do nothing but add to the total Obliterate damage, let’s say the total is increased by 20 up to 70. This means our total dps goes from 100 to 120, which is a 20% gain.

Now let’s consider the same scenario but with MoTFW. Instead of 100 dps, we now do 50 (non oblit damage) + 1.25 x 50 (oblit damage)= 112.5. The extra 12.5 damage comes from the damage increase on Obliterate (the 0.25 x 50 bit). We add KM58 and see what happens. Previously, Obliterate dps went from 50 to 70. Now it goes from 1.25 x 50 = 62.5 to 1.25 x 70 = 87,5. Our new overal dps is then 50 (non obliterate damage) + 87,5 (obliterate damage) = 137,5. The increase is 137,5 / 112,5 = 1,22 -> 22%.

The conclusion is that MoTFW makes KM58 a larger fractional increase.

Kelliste-antonidas · August 21, 2020, 5:35pm

Still a bunch of stuff that doesnt actually apply to how frost actually works.

First you said damage, and then dps. Are you using these terms as synonyms which might be why you think 10% damage is me saying 10% dps difference.

Bicepspump-galakrond · August 21, 2020, 5:36pm

Doesn’t matter if you use dps, damage or damage units in this example.

Bicepspump-galakrond · August 21, 2020, 5:37pm

Please elaborate how exactly.

Nicolas-sargeras · August 21, 2020, 5:40pm

Bicepspump:

I thought my example was simple enough, but let me clarify.

We consider a spec, doesn’t matter if 2H or DW, and see what happens when we add KM58 and MoTFW. The idea here is to figure out how MoTFW changes the value that KM58 adds.

We start off simple. We do 100 dps. 50 out of that 100 dps comes from Obliterate. KM58 will do nothing but add to the total Obliterate damage, let’s say the total is increased by 20 up to 70. This means our total dps goes from 100 to 120, which is a 20% gain.

Now let’s consider the same scenario but with MoTFW. Instead of 100 dps, we now do 50 (non oblit damage) + 1.25 x 50 (oblit damage)= 112.5. The extra 12.5 damage comes from the damage increase on Obliterate (the 0.25 x 50 bit). We add KM58 and see what happens. Previously, Obliterate dps went from 50 to 70. Now it goes from 1.25 x 50 = 62.5 to 1.25 x 70 = 87,5. Our new overal dps is then 50 (non obliterate damage) + 87,5 (obliterate damage) = 137,5. The increase is 137,5 / 112,5 = 1,22 -> 22%.

The conclusion is that MoTFW makes KM58 a larger fractional increase.

Excellent breakdown - Thank you for this. If I am understanding where you are going with this, 2H Frost will get, proportionally, stronger and stronger Oblits as the expansion progresses as they will have a higher proportional amount of their damage tied into Oblits/KM (lvl58)

Kelliste-antonidas · August 21, 2020, 5:44pm

Well, it does matter if its dps or damage. DPS is damage over a duration, damage is either overall damage in a fight, or the amount of damage of a single ability. Using them as synonyms does nothing but create confusion.

Bicepspump-galakrond · August 21, 2020, 5:45pm

Confusion apparently… Doesn’t matter for the discussion though. A 5% increase to dps is a 5% increase in overal damage.

Kelliste-antonidas · August 21, 2020, 5:46pm

So if I do 5% more dps, that a singular button press does 5% more damage?

Bicepspump-galakrond · August 21, 2020, 5:49pm

This doesn’t make sense? I explicitly said overall damage. Stop diverging the discussion and instead maybe answer my simple question?

Kelliste-antonidas · August 21, 2020, 5:50pm

So then does obliterate do 50 damage per button press or 50 dps?

Bicepspump-galakrond · August 21, 2020, 5:51pm

Can you read my posts?

Nicolas-sargeras · August 21, 2020, 5:52pm

Respectfully, you do realize DPS means damage per second?

Kelliste-antonidas · August 21, 2020, 5:53pm

And you said 100 damage, and Obliterate did 50 damage… so which is it? Its not my fault if you are using terms that dont mean the same thing. Overall damage, damage, and dps all mean different things.

Bicepspump-galakrond · August 21, 2020, 5:54pm

Bicepspump:

I thought my example was simple enough, but let me clarify.

We consider a spec, doesn’t matter if 2H or DW, and see what happens when we add KM58 and MoTFW. The idea here is to figure out how MoTFW changes the value that KM58 adds.

We start off simple. We do 100 dps. 50 out of that 100 dps comes from Obliterate. KM58 will do nothing but add to the total Obliterate damage, let’s say the total is increased by 20 up to 70. This means our total dps goes from 100 to 120, which is a 20% gain.

Now let’s consider the same scenario but with MoTFW. Instead of 100 dps, we now do 50 (non oblit damage) + 1.25 x 50 (oblit damage)= 112.5. The extra 12.5 damage comes from the damage increase on Obliterate (the 0.25 x 50 bit). We add KM58 and see what happens. Previously, Obliterate dps went from 50 to 70. Now it goes from 1.25 x 50 = 62.5 to 1.25 x 70 = 87,5. Our new overal dps is then 50 (non obliterate damage) + 87,5 (obliterate damage) = 137,5. The increase is 137,5 / 112,5 = 1,22 -> 22%.

The conclusion is that MoTFW makes KM58 a larger fractional increase.

Here’s my post, read that. As you can see, you get exactly the same result regardless of using the word “damage” or “dps”, maybe we should use “bananas” instead?