Its 15% more strength. It also depends on if its multiplicative or additive. Usually its additive in terms offensive power so it ends up being 50% strength with everything stacked that works on everything. If its multiplicative it would be more than that. If you start out with 1000 strength and its multiplicative then it would be 1200 with Pillar, then you use the new value 1200 and then 15% increase so it would be 1380, then that increased by 15% which would be 1587 instead of the 1500 with it being additive.
Im pretty sure its additive though so all of them together is 50% str increase. Rather than 45% str increase and 15% frost damage. So DW gets 50% str windows, and 15% frost damage. 2h you have to choose what you get. With Obliterate being such a large portion of the damage a lot of them arent going to be KM proc Obliterates which is why Crusader is strong.
Said it in other threads, canât recall if I said it here, but either, bake fallen crusader into veteran of the 3rd war that gives all DPS DKs a bit more play with runeforges, make 2h only runeforges that combine 2 effects into one, frozen crusader, would have fallen crusader and razorice at the same time but be 2h only, or bake razorice into one of our Frost passives.
Honestly, would like to see fallen crusader baked into veteran of the 3rd war and razorice baked into our mastery or another passive, then a bunch of new more interesting runeforges that have some fun bonuses.
Well, if those new runeforges dont give dps then we just turn into enchanting. If you just bake these things in into the spec the problem is still there, DW gets 2 and 2h gets 1. They could and probably should have just made 2h runeforges which would have solved the problem, but then you have to create each and every combination, well maybe not each and every combination, but you would have to create a lot more creating bloat.
Even the old runeforges were just bloat other than stoneskin, fallen crusader and razorice. Cinderglacier was an exception in later expansions. No one used Lichbane, and if they were using it they shouldnt have because all it did was give your autos a small amount of fire damage increased if you were fighting undead. But a lot of them were just bloat. Even in pvp you would want to get a weapon chain.
Im not a fan of pushing problems further down the line.
Why is everything unfair to you? Its like if it isnt in favor of 2h its just an unfair comparison, or if 2h isnt just way out ahead then its an unfair comparison.
There are those that care about the spec, and those that care about the weapon and it needs to seriously stop. WoW is an MMO before its an RPG.
I am just trying to compare like with like and get at what the difference is.
You made up numbers where DW got razerice and the 2H got nothing. 2H could have taken razerice too at the expense of strength, so in that example we would need to know what the difference between FC and RI is to know how much better 2H obliterates are.
The latter example was comparing FC + PoF + DD to razerice, saying razerice was worse.
I could just as easily have said razerice + PoF + DD was better than FC. Is that a fair comparison? No.
I think you are dying on the â2H is going to be bad and I told you soâ hill and this is a massive argument you are trying to win over everyone in the DK forums, no matter what.
It will be great once the real numbers show up from people on the beta.
RI multiplies everything you do as damage by 15% as long as you do Frost Damage. It scales with Strength, Weapon and Mastery. FC multiplies your strength by 15% stacking additively with PoF.
I believe DD will also multiply your strength stacking additively with PoF and FC.
WARNING: The following thing I wrote will be a lot of Math. If you donât like math, read it at your own discretion as I love math myself.
I believe this has to be considered:
Consider you have a fixed amount of strength (Letâs say 100) with 25% Mastery and nothing else. 0% Versatility, 0% Crit Chance.
You use PoF and used no runes. (Both now have 120 and has a chance to get 135 from FC, Deathâs Due not included)
Since Blizzard normalized abilities to scale with Attack Power rather than Weapon Damage, I might be wrong here but correct me if I am. [According to Wowhead, 2h has 88% attack power scaling and DW has 60% attack power scaling per weapon as attack power scales proportionately with Strength.] (Resulting: 118.8 for 2h if used in conjunction with FC and 105.6 without it; 144<72> for DW if used in conjunction with FC and 126<63> without it)
Now factor in MotFW and you used Obliterate when KM procs. Resulting in a total of 50% Obliterate Damage increase for 2h and 25% Obliterate Damage increase for DW since Obliterate now deals Frost Damage. (Resulting: 178.2 Base Frost Damage prior Crit Damage and Vers with FC for 2h, 158.4 Base Frost Damage prior Crit Damage and Vers without FC for 2h; 180<90> Base Frost Damage prior to Crit Damage and vers with FC for DW, 157.5 <78.75> Base Frost Damage prior to Crit Damage and Vers without FC for DW.)
Letâs give reader a break here and so far we have
178.2 Base Frost Damage of Obliterate prior Crit Damage and Vers with FC for 2h.
158.4 Base Frost Damage of Obliterate prior Crit Damage and Vers without FC for 2h.
Total of 19.8 Base Frost Damage difference of choosing FC over RI for 2h.
180<90> Base Frost Damage of Obliterate prior Crit Damage and Vers with FC for DW.
157.5<78.75> Base Frost Damage of Obliterate prior Crit Damage and Vers without FC for DW.
Total of 22.5 <11.25> Base Frost Damage difference of having FC procced or not. Yes, the values of DW are cumulative.
Now, letâs factor Crit Damage and Razorice. Iâm going to make a method in our brains a total of 8 parameters based on the parenthesis given for this portion. (a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h) whereâŠ
a = 2h Obliterate Damage with FC in PvE
b = 2h Obliterate Damage without FC in PvE
c = 2h Obliterate Damage with FC in PvP
d = 2h Obliterate Damage without FC in PvP
e = DW Obliterate Damage with FC in PvE
f = DW Obliterate Damage without FC in PvE
g = DW Obliterate Damage with FC in PvP
h = DW Obliterate Damage without FC in PvP
Keep in mind of those four values above for Base Frost Damage.
Since KM makes it crit, the Base Frost Damage Value multiplies by 200% and 150% in PvP. (356.4, 316.8, 267.3, 237.6, 360<180>, 315<157.5>, 270<135>, 236.25<118.125>)
Assume your enemy has 5 stacks of RI and since itâs mutually exclusive with FC for 2h, some of the parameters are blanked out. Razorice allows enemies to take 15% more frost damage. (----,364.32,----,273.24, 414<207>, 362.25<181.125>, 310.5<155.25>, 271.6875<135.84375>)
NOTE:The Italic text format represents the damage multiplier for Frost.Where bold represents where MotFW will affect Obliterate. This math is JUST affecting Obliterate Damage. I believe Vers scales before Crit Damage as Vers multiplies off anything your character does as the secondary stats multiply off each other.
Conclusion: Razorice will be better as Frost Damage will be important in Shadowlands anyway. 2h Lags slightly behind DW as difference of FC is shown. MotFWâs return really isnât that bad now compared to WoDâs iteration but it could use a little bit more oomph.
If any of my math is incorrect, please let me know. Iâm doing it because I like the class and doing math on it. I should make a simulation program of how the damage scaling works. A bit more shed of light would be much appreciated to add more to my cause for the Ebon Blade. Even though Iâm the Okayest DK whom played since Wrath Beta.
I already explained why Razorice was used, its used because the entire reason they did the 25% increased damage on obliterate is to bridge the gap due to an extra runeforge.
And no, they were not saying those 3 buffs together beat razorice, its that fc is better than razorice in the same scenario.
People on the beta already found that DW is 15% better in terms of ST and 30% in aoe.
Iâll wait and see what is better, and it looks like razorice might be. So I wonât accept your oversimplified 10% you kept claiming is the difference.
That is the PTR and level 50? The frost damage for KM procs is level 58.
I will wait for some real testing from level 60âs on the beta, before I pretend to know how much harder 2H Obliterates hit for compared to DW. Maybe you should do the same?
The game is literally a MMORPG. Its subjective to say its more one thing than another because not everyone plays or experiences the game the same way you do.
Alright, and both weapons get it, its not exclusive to one weapon or the other. In fact 2h gains a greater increase with obliterate outside of KM without KM rank 2. So if that is the damage before rank 2 its not looking to be any better than those numbers.