I know there’s an order, I just meant my list was not in order. But I did forget about highest timed key and I believe this is in second place, under group comp, but I don’t put class and group comp in the same basket. In my experience if a group is looking for something specific for their comp, let’s say bloodlust, it doesn’t really matter what the class is, to some extent, each spec has an invisible value and it’s gonna get compared to other specs and other criteria, like being enhance shaman gives higher value, but if the shaman’s other criteria are low then maybe grab a mage with more of everything else.
ah gotcha
Depending on the dungeon and the group comp it does. Let’s say you are running SoB and you still need a lust and decurse with 1 slot left, you are pretty much forced to take a Shaman.
Now, these situations don’t really matter as much in lower keys but do play a big part of group formation in higher ones. Not bringing a proper Soothe to GB is a huge oversight.
Mages also have lust and decurse.
But I get your point, some dungeons require some tools that only certain specs bring and depending on the context with your current group you’ll be looking for a specific piece of the puzzle. It works the other way around as well, if you already have enough decurse and just need another DPS, the class suddenly doesn’t have as much value.
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Oh true, that was a bad example lol. Maybe if you needed a faster interrupt cause you already have 2 casters then.
Complete nonsense
Care to elaborate?
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My post is not meant to be comprehensive. It’s not meant to absolve blizzard in their role of the current issues players are having with m+.
The post is stating something simple: the player base has become extremely paranoid because a player signing up for your m+ group can look good on paper (ilvl, io, etc) but completely bombs duting the key which has raised the bar to unreasonable levels for invites.
That’s why you see ppl complaining about not getting invited to a 6 key when they are at 615 ilvl or something. The player base has become paranoid for a number of reasons (not just the ones I mentioned) but also because some ppl are just horrible players who get carried.
I cannot stress enough how much of an issue carries create for the game because it means all the normal markers we’d use to gauage skill get thrown out the window.
The whole point of io and ilvl was just to point this out. Nothing is a bullet proof way of determining skill. Idk why ppl are coming at me with that. But these are the tools we currently have to pre-screen players b4 invites.
Among the many reasons m+ is a mess is because you have a player base that is either just bad at the game and instead of learning and improving, they get carried and frustrate players at higher lvls who feel “HOW DO YOU NOT KNOW YOU NEED TO INTERRUPT?” or “HOW DO YOU NOT KNOW THIS IS THE WRONG BOSS TO LUST ON?” (think of Necrotic Wake"
And then you have ppl who do the carrying so they can get gold and screw the game up for everyone else in the meantime.
Thats the point of my post. Ppl keep getting so caught up in the io part, it’s pointless to reply
It’s not that the bar is so high for invites, it’s mostly that rewards don’t scale correctly, making 630 ilvl players applying to 8s to farm crests. Someone making a group for their +8 looking at the list of applications, they would normally invite the higher ilvl higher io people in there. It’s not that the bar is set that high, it’s just that it makes no sense to invite lower people. It’s like if you’re offered $100 or $10000, you’ll take the 10k every time. No one thinks 620 ilvl is too low for a +8, they get declined because someone higher was invited, not because 620 is too low.
Composition has always been an important part of the game. I can tell you that when I’m inviting ppl tho, I keep in mind what their numbers would look like by checking raid logs.
If their ilvl is high but their numbers in raid logs is low, they aint getting invited.
Not key logs. Raid logs because it gives me their ST damage.
It’s not bullet proof, but it helps me filter out ppl who will be doing less than 500k single target dps on an 8+ key even though they somehow timed a 10 key because they got carried in a key group.
I’m sure other players are doing similar things.
What you’ve actually got is a bunch of people who love WoW that are being priced out of the game by excessive mechanics and ever-increasing expectations with regard to engagement and preparation.
Change is inevitable, and as experience grows the most adaptable will aggressively promote that change. Unfortunately, Blizzard is tracking and attempting to move the game along at the pace of the leading edge of players. This has the effect of pushing the ends of the range further and further from the center, where the mass of players are. It’s starting to totally warp the game and the only winners in this scenario are the small fraction of players who think other people care about their WoW achievements.
I mentiones in my post that I felt like Blizz put too much emphasis on the input of the top players but it was a minor point and not one I wanted to focus. I meant this largely in class balance tho.
The difficulty criticism is not one I understand. At least not at this point in the game.
Wow has tiered difficulty. Raids have 4 tiers. Dungeons have tons from norm to max key.
As far as mechanics go, strange comment. You can literally ignore 90% of mechanics in normal and heroic dungeons. If you wanna pew pew, they have that option for you.
Starting at M0 is when mechanics mattered given the jump in difficulty.
Most ppl cleared a full normal raid this expanse in 1-2 weeks if they started playing at launch.
Blizz has also introduced delves to narrow the gearing gap between players and playstyles as well. Not perfect but nothing is.
You dont have to do higher content that focuses on mechs. Some ppl do. I enjoy mechanics. It makes it funner.
Your complaint is make it easier or less mechanics? Do a lower tier of difficulty.
If your criticism was how certain mechanics interact with each other and bad game design, you could make some good points but the tiered difficulty largely solve your concern. Dont do higher tiers if you dont want more mechs.
Blizzard changed M+ in a way that sent people from starting at +2 in a 20-tier system, to dumping them directly into the equivalent of a previous season’s +10.
You think that has gone well?
They have made the lower level keys a hellish nightmare for the average players. They have raised the skill floor higher than it’s ever been.
This is not a game founded on the principle that every season is about increasing your skill level, or perennially pushing yourself to be a better gamer because that’s not what’s important to probably 90% of the players of this game.
It’s a roleplaying game that give people a chance to live out their fantasy of being a fire-slinging elf, or a brutish berserker orc. It lost sight of that and the direction it’s taking is once again driving players to other games to find the joy and wonder that doesn’t come from putting the average noob into places like City of Threads and expecting them to come out satisfied.
The game, and apparently a lot of players, are now so full of themselves that when you tell them there’s a problem they will fold themselves in half trying to justify it. The lack of perspective is clear and will only change when enough players have finally given up that massive alterations are required just to put it on life-support.
Sorry if this is a derail, this whole situation is a dire mess and I don’t know which bunch of denialists I’m trying to counter anymore.
What I’m saying is the fantasy element is still there. Normal, heroic, m+ is all the same content. Almost exact same aside from some mechs.
It sounds like you just want to do high difficult content and have it be easy so you can feel like you’re doing difficult content while its on easy mode.
The fantasy element is the same on normal as it is on heroic and m+. Higher content forces you to use abilities you may not normally use like your defensives or interrupts.
Furthermore, you should not be going to a +2 from heroic. When mythic dungeons dropped this expanse, not keys, mythic 0 dungeons, I got slapped by bosses and adds.
It forced me to actually learn the SAME mechanics that were already there in norm and heroic that I was previously ignoring. M0 didnt become easy for me for a while until I kept doing it.
My highest key is a 11 timed +2. But yes, the difficulty jump from heroic to M0 forced me to either play my class better or start learning mechanics and looking at the dungeon journal.
It’s fine if you dont like this, but the fantasy element is still there in norms and heroics and once you get geared, so long as you are actually trying to learn, which difficulty forces you to do, higher content also becomes easy.
My first time in M0 was hard. Now its a joke.
I agree there are some games where the difficulty is ridiculous where one hit from ANYTJING kills you and its a waste of time, but wow isnt one of them. At least not to me.
If you enjoy the fantasy of destroying things with your toon, you can do that in norms which again is the EXACT same content but easier
EDIT:
LAST THING: Dont forget. Sometimes they want something to be unachievable at first. Why? So you fill in tbe gap some other way. Do you want AOTC? Go do keys to help you get there.
Do you want keys? Go do delves to fill in some gear requirements then try again or go do a normal raid to get your tier bonus set then come back
This is literally nothing new. Players were always inviting over qualified applicants whenever they are able to. Why take someone less experienced? Score creep and inflation was also always an issue and not isolated to this season. This is especially the case mid season and onwards.
Scores always mean more early in the season because there’s less time and room for failing upwards. It has nothing to do with being “paranoid”.
I just can’t
This has absolutely nothing to do with me. I’m right where I am comfortable. The content is decent for me, but it sucks that actual life out of too many players.
What I’m contesting is exactly the point your making.
You think it’s a crime to be bad at this game, or for this game to reward you for doing something easy and I think that’s the actually toxic behavior that’s causing the problems in this game.
You guys are gate-keeping this game as if anyone gives a flying toss about whether Jimmy two-toes completes mythic raid, or times a 10, even though he sucks at the game.
You guys are so busy defending the need for difficulty that you’re prepared to take everything down with you. You would rather the game just faded away and died than see someone getting through content and having fun.
You are so worried that making things a bit easier would ruin everything that you cannot open your perspective.
If you guys truly think everything is fine, I genuinely don’t know how to measure you insanity.
What we have right now is player after player wanting to do keys, but instead being relegated to sitting in the queue being rejected for content that should be open and easily accessible.
The fact that you can’t accept the correlation between the increased difficulty and the increased expectations that party leaders have when forming groups, might prevent you from ever understanding the problem.
It entirely factual to say that players are responsible for making themselves more attractive as applicants, but that’s where your whole understanding seems to break down.
Yes, most players of this game suck, and that’s the point. If your players are this bad, making the lowest end form of content harder than they can regularly handle is just poor design.
WoW is trying to be something it’s largest population is not and that’s just ludicrous.
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You are the king of meaningless differences, you know that? You also happen to be the kind of person to give your opinion as if it were a fact.
Something doesnt need to be new for it to be heightened.
What are you even talking about? You are the one who made the statement and distinction that these things happening now are somehow novel. They are not in the slightest. We have had score creep and inflation for multiple expansions. We have had groups prefer higher experienced and geared players over someone less experienced and geared since the dawn of time.
As always you are the type of person to completely dodge and ignore everything that’s said to say something completely meaningless and off topic.
That’s the point, it’s not.
No one is gate keeping. Wow, at its core, is a time-oriented game because of its business model. If you are a bad player, and use carries to appear like you are a good player, and then use that appearance to get invited into groups and wasting people’s time, you are just bad.
Go and do norm. Here’s the thing you donr seem to get. You dont have to do high end content. If you like easy mode, when you do all the dungeons and raids at normal, stop playing and wait for new content.
I dont do mythic raiding because its too time consuming and I feel its too difficult for me to kill all the raid bosses on mythic. You know what I do, I do it on heroic instead, get AOTC, then I stop playing until new content. I’m happy that way. I dont feel like I have to do it.
What I’m not gonna do though is complain that mythic raid, which is designed to be as hard as the game can make it, should be made easier just so I can do it. If I really wanted to, I would.
But its ok, the game has normal and heroix raids for me. Dungeons and keys are the same thing.
Its a game. Its supposed to have an ending. Play the game to the difficulty of YOUR choice then stop until new content. Ridiculous.
You mean the 10 level of mythic plus progression that they snatched away in favor of…something I don’t understand.
Thrusting players that did 2s and 3s in previous season into the equivalent of a +10 is a recipe for failure. No amount of gaslighting about people “thinking there are too many levels” or “too many of the levels are irrelevant” will change the fact that things got disrupted in a way that hasn’t improved anything for the vast majority.
No genius. I made a point about the bar being raised for invites. I never claimed to being comprehensive.
You comment saying, well the game has always had ppl inviting higher qualified ppl.
Yeah Ik, YOU are pointing out a small difference to dismiss an argument. That’s what I mean by meaningless. I see your strawman fallacies. Thats why I stopped taking you serious before.
High standards in previous expansions doesnt change 5he fact that it seems to be a larger issue in this one.
An issue exisiting in the past doesnt discount it from playing a role today.
What are you even arguing? If it was an issue in the past, and you agree its always been there, then you agree its an issue now.
Maybe you disagree its as big of an issue as I am saying it is, and you wouldnt call it player paranoia about inviting bad players to keys, but this is a meaningless distinction.
You’re a waste of time. Back to not taking you seriously again you adorable wow player you.