Sure, I’ll concede that it’s impossible for tuning to be perfect in a flex raid, but they can get close, and as long as all the “goodies” I’ve previously mentioned are still locked behind the static 20-man, what’s the downside? Those that still care about cutting edge, mounts, top ilvl gear, etc., can all stick to the strict 20-man, and those of us that just want more content and don’t care about any of that can stick with flex and yes, possibly have an easier time of it if the scaling isn’t perfect, but without the same rewards - what’s the downside? Seems like win-win.
I don’t disagree with most of your points on what else they could do, but given my points above about how both can exist, what’s the downside of adding flex without the same rewards, just to give additional content? I don’t see how anyone loses here, everyone gets what they want.
Oh you mean how they changed all the game’s raids from static 10, 25, 40 to flex? Yeah I remember that.
Actually “Flex” used to be its own difficulty but they liked it so well they incorporated it in all the other difficulties (other than Mythic, so far). Maybe your recollection of things is a bit selective?
This means their raid can’t do mythic prog. Either they dont have the members, and are too lazy OR too complacent/stubborn to get more, or their members overall just dont want to do mythic and are fine with aotc(which is fine) and this person wants more, but doesnt want to leave their guild/isnt good enough to join a new guild.
This is compounded by my earlier quote that, as a raid team, they think they are too good for a bench and thus want everyone to play all the time. That’s simply a logistic issue and defeats the whole point of mythic. Mythic exists, again, for the balance between 10 and 25 because, historically, blizzard CAN’T balance correctly on a per boss basis because there are far too many variables between 10 and 25.
Judging by his parses, I’d say this particular person can do mythic…but doesn’t, for whatever reason, as they have only killed ulgrax at a green parse on mythic and but the rest are purple/green on heroic. Thats totally fine but, as a healer, they will have trouble trying to pug mythic groups even though the first three are basically free. This isnt taking into account anyone’s personal ability, however, as just looking at a parse number doesnt tell you that., but seeing as how they have purples on heroic, I’m sure their mechanical ability isn’t bad.
As for Meatyboi, who cares what they think, they don’t even play the game.
As for the OP, they aren’t very good in mythic and they are only moderately decent in M+.
You can be casual, and be a good enough player to be good in at least one of these metrics, thats not the case here. They are a marginally decent player that wants the hardest content in the game to be easier so they can do it, because they don’t want to get better. That mindset is not one that needs to be encourage, in my opinion.
You can progress, with pugs, up to 4/8 mythic very easily if you are as mechanically sound as you claim to be, the only one that even remotely matters is Rash, and thats just because of the sheer amount of things going on.
Also, using buzzwords like “pearl clutching” and “sweats” that you hear off your favorite twitch streamers page just makes me take you far less seriously.
Then get better, collectively, as an IRL friend guild. Stop trying to bring the content down to your level and just do better to complete the content. It’s not anyone’s fault but your own guild if you only have 4 people that are good enough to clear mythic content while you have 36 people that can clear heroic to various degrees.
You have the people. Get them to do better or get more people. Or don’t and don’t get into mythic. Bringing it down to your level, which WILL happen with flex mythic bringing back the exact same problem 10 and 25 heroic used to have, isn’t going to fix anything. You, in particular, aren’t even doing that bad on your shaman. If anyone in your guild should be doing mythic, it’s you.
What you SHOULD be championing for, is for mythic to change such that killing one boss doesnt lock you to the entire raid lockout for the whole week preventing you from doing anything. So that pug that falls apart after the first two bosses doesnt keep you from doing the other 6 should you be able to. THAT is a good change.
What you should also be championing for, is, as Curoar said, fights that arent just a weakaura boss like broodtwister requiring 3 separate weak auras and an entire map of people just to not immediately have to wipe. Those bosses suck (even though imo BT is pretty fun even with all I have to do as an evoker), and they suck worse with private auras.
Umm hello, no they can’t. We have nearly 16 years of them proving they cant. That’s why mythic exists starting with SOO, because they couldn’t have tuning to not be good enough for 10 and 25. The raid is functionally entirely different with 10 less people much less 15 less people, you all would also still be complaining because you can’t bring little johnny and timmy your 26th and 27th member. Its not gonna end unless the flex raid numerically includes mythic too, and we know even from 40 mans in vanilla that blizzard cant tune that well either, you don’t even need half the raid in vanilla.
What this all boils down to, is your sad you can’t get the titles, hall of fame, or mount because your guild, as a whole, isn’t good enough to do mythic, but you dont want to leave them, for whatever reason, or simply get good enough yourself to be able to pug into those kills in another raid.
That’s fine, but that’s not a valid reason to directly harm the mythic set up.
No. It wasn’t. It was added at the same time as mythic, and changed heroic and normal to suit that once it was discovered that it was no different than raid finder. You’re thinking of Raid Finder, which was the only raid to functionally use that numerical setting prior to Siege of Orgrimmar.
We don’t, and have never had, 40 flex. We had raids that were tuned so badly that you didn’t even need 40 players, and then we had fights in TBC-Mists that were immensely harder based on how little, or how many, group members you had. It was so bad that there was entire patch notes of difference between 10 and 25 that only affected whichever difficulty was noted. It was functionally no different than raid finder and that is why it just took the place of normal in 6.0.2. Literally existing as a separate raid is not the same as “being its own difficulty” when everything about it was just functionally a non queued raid finder difficulty.
This was the driving change behind mythic difficulty being created.
If you’re going to say arrogantly rude things like
Flex/10man won’t work, for the reasons people have already stated it’s a balance nightmare and there will always be an optimal number to aim for which will carry over to progression guilds and cause issues.
The only thing i can think of would be to make boss lockouts flexible (to a degree) for Mythic raid bosses to enable a pug culture that doesn’t force you to play with the same static members, but would also enable for current static groups to function as they do now.
Taking inspiration from FF14s system, but also keeping the limitations WoW has in it’s rules so to speak.
You’re now locked to loot per boss, not bound to a lockout ID.
You can do the encounter as much as you want each week, but no eligibility for loot so you can still join in a raid on a boss before the one you’re wanting to kill, assuming they’re going to that next.
If you join a raid in progress it nullifies your ability to gain loot from any previous killed boss - This would have a knock on effect in no longer allowing split wing progression (Not sure im keen on this, but FF14 also does this to stop people skipping to later bosses for loot).
Then again, pug culture only really does the first few easy bosses every tier, which usually ranges from the first 1-4 pending the tier’s difficulty and mechanics involved so not much would really change from the current pug runs anyway.
I mean the first part isn’t true anymore with the success and popularity of Hardcore mode. But I get what you are referencing.
But to the second part: Why heroic, and now mythic, exists at all is because the people who actually raid wanted a challenge and the lower amount of people exists because 40 mans were too hard to balance and logistically too hard for guilds too hard to keep up. 40 man rosters were faltering before TBC, and they were, virtually overnight, ended when 25 man became a thing.
I just stopped reading there because I never said that. What I said was… raids used to be fixed size, whether it was 10, 25, 40, etc. Blizz introduced ‘Flex’ as its own raid difficulty. After a while they incorporated flex raid size to all other difficulties other than mythic. I don’t think I have the patience to do this back and forth any more because it just seems like you’d rather argue than understand.
Oh you mean how they changed all the game’s raids from static to flex?
Now add the numbers for additional context. Bro… that’s it I’m done. Perfectly valid sentence with correct meaning.
40 man raids DID get changed to flex lol. Once upon a time we only had 40 man raids, now we don’t because all relevant raids are flex (aside from mythic). 40 to flex… yes that’s what happened.
I do get how you could read that out of context, but why would you? Because you want something to argue with.
They completely went away in favor of 10 and 25 man raids, and that was the ONLY difficulties until the respective raid/expansion added the other 2 difficulties, one of which being no difference in difficulty from normal so it just became normal and had its tech applied to raid finder. I’m not writing it all a 4th time. Read the post or stop replying because if you won’t read the post there isn’t any point in talking to you anyway
40 man was NEVER flex. It never existed. It still doesnt. Nothing changes if you bring 20, 14, 24, or 40 people to a 40 man raid.
not the number of enemies
not the targets of abilities
not the health
not the damage
nothing.
Therefore the fundamental reasons for why it could be a flex raid simply do not exist. The raid HAS to dynamically change for it to be flex, thats the whole point of flex existing as a difficulty trigger
I’m not sure many people would sit through hundreds of pulls on individual bosses, that might not even be tuned correctly for their group size, only to not recieve loot or achievements once the boss dies. That sounds incredibly frustrating.
I mean, just join a mythic pug. Even in content from previous expansions that hasn’t been outgeared enough to solo, or may even, like tindral, smolderon, and fyrakk last tier just to name the most recent, werent bypassed easily until NP mythic had been out for awhile without effort.
The average “casual gamer” like the people in this thread, leave after a max of 3 pulls, if not just the very first one. The only time they don’t leave, is when they want a shot at something like the queen ring or the silken court spymaster’s so they tough it out because the gear is just that good. The other bosses? They don’t even bother to stay even if/when theyre the reason the pull failed
If they got the only change theyre trying to make, variable mythic sizes (and thus, ruin the whole reason mythic exists at all) all they would do is complain about the difficulty next. They already got Silken Court to be a normal mode fight even on heroic because they couldnt handle 2 groups of 2 web targets, you think they would be able to handle eight targets and a minimum of two knocks per add phase on broodtwister?
Absolutely not, or they would be there.
edit–forgot to say, that some bosses that werent nearly completely soloable, like jaina, jailer, n’zoth, carapace, broodmother, dathea, fyrakk, tindral, raszageth, sylvanas, painsmith, stone legion generals, denathrius, azshara just to name a few from the last few expansions, aren’t even attempted in pug groups because they’re…you know, pugs. People like the ones in this comment section wouldn’t even bother to attempt them when theyre hard. So we KNOW that just having more or less people isn’t the actual issue here.
I have no idea how you can come to this conclusion when I’ve said several times in this thread that I’m completely open to mythic-flex NOT including any of this. idgaf about titles or hall of fame. I just want to play with my irl friends on harder content.
I simply don’t see how anyone can be opposed to this since it would not impact how any current mythic raiders like to play. Maybe my proposition hasn’t been stated clearly enough yet, so I’ll break it down.
My proposal is to keep mythic 20-man in place, as is, no changes, but add a new difficulty called (for example) Mythic-flex. Here’s how those two would differ:
Mythic Raid (system currently in place)
Unlocks at the beginning of the season
Strict 20-man requirement, no scaling
Eligible for cutting edge achievement
Eligible for mount drop
Eligible for highest track of boss and great vault loot
Same lockout rules as currently in place for mythic raids
Considered the highest tier difficulty and achievement with perfect tuning
Mythic-Flex Raid (available as an additional difficulty setting)
Unlocks halfway through the season
10 - 30 man flex scaling with all mythic mechanics enabled
NOT eligible for cutting edge achievement
NOT eligible for mount drops
NOT eligible for highest track of boss loot, but eligible for highest track of great vault loot
Flexible lockout rules akin to those used in heroic and normal raids
Considered pleb-tier by cutting edge raiders and offers almost no benefit above heroic raiding other than giving casual guilds more content to progress on
Players would then choose which setting they want to use before entering the raid, just as they choose normal/heroic/mythic today. So once mythic-flex unlocks halfway through the season, the new options would be normal/heroic/mythic-flex/mythic, and for the latter two, the settings listed above would apply accordingly.
This takes nothing away from current mythic raiders. It doesn’t incentivize switching to flex if you care about the achievs, mount drops, or highest ilvl gear. It only incentivizes switching to flex if you don’t have a perfect 20-man roster or you think flex will be easier and you don’t care about the mythic 20m rewards. And by the time we get halfway through the season when mythic flex would unlock, most guilds that care about mythic raiding are usually done anyway.
The arguments presented so far all seem to assume that it would somehow take away from the current mythic raiding experience, and with this proposal, I just don’t see how that’s the case. It’s strictly additive, only offering more content to a wider player base without impacting anything that currently exists.
Every responder against this idea in this thread is the same. They haven’t read the details of the argument for this, they just copy pasta or just read the title and respond to that over and over.
Guys… none of us give a crap about the titles, mounts, loot, etc. We just want a way to continue playing together on our raid nights, with our friends, with challenging content after AOTC, which always happens late in the season for us. This is a video game. Relax.
It will. Just like 25 mans killed 40 mans, and mythic killed heroic. People who can do the content, but have an easier way to do the content, will do that content.
This is just not possible, and is the reason mythic exists in the first place. We have been over this.
You have ALL of this already. It’s called heroic.
Literally all you’re advocating for is to nuke the heroic raid vault reward entirely, and just automatically give you mythic track loot, but you want to act like you did mythic to get it.
Nah. Do the comparable difficulty to get the rewards from it. Period.
Like this is just dumb.
You want mythic gear? Do mythic content.
You dont want to get a roster of 20? Then you dont do mythic content.
You dont have 20 players that are good enough? Then get 20 players that are good enough.
Your literal only arguement for it is you cant, or wont, get 20 people good enough to do mythic, but you want the gear anyway so you want the option to bring however many you want, which will trivialize the content and is literally the whole reason for mythic existing.
Honestly, cry more that you aren’t good enough, whether it be individually or as a guild. Just saying your casual doesn’t cut it. You dont need to be a hardcore 24/7 gamer to do mythic.
Now clearing mythic is a different issue entirely, but you dont want that. You want to progress.
Well joyous times to you, blizzard is in the era they’ve been in since mythic was created where almost half the raid on mythic is pushovers in a pug. Go progress.
But you dont want that, you want a guild. So make oneMake the roster.
So is the crux of your argument is “they shouldn’t do this because I don’t think it’s possible for them to scale mythic to flex.” You don’t have any philosophical arguments, it’s just something you don’t think they can achieve. If Blizzard came out and said “yeah we can do that and we’re going to launch it next season,” would you be mad about it? Would it make you feel better if it was called “Heroic+” instead of “mythic-flex” but all the same rules still applied?
The long and short of it is, does mythic-flex interest you? No? Then don’t do it. But there’s no reason for you to advocate against something other people want just because you’re not interested in it when it otherwise doesn’t impact you in any way. Whether or not it’s possible is Blizzard’s problem, not yours. At this point you’re just trolling.
