Make the Alliance Evil for once

Lore Story Forum
121

The grand Alliance/The Alliance of Lordaeron are one and the same thing. Exhibit A:

The noble humans of Stormwind are a proud, tenacious race. They bravely fought the orcish Horde for generations as the patrons of the Grand Alliance.
From the warcraft manual. There is no distinction. They consider themselves as part of the Grand Alliance while fighting the Horde.

Again, even when Jaina went back to Kul Tiras and pleaded her case, both Katherine and Ashvane did not consider the Alliance as different from the one in Warcraft 3.

Or its more like atrocities happened even with the best of his intention. Injustices happen everyday in any number of prisons system. Even the best systems will have issues.

122

Yeah I think some people believe that the Alliance of Lordaeron fell apart following Lordaerons fall. Even though nations like Ironforge and the rebuilt Stormwind were still part of the Alliance of Lordaeron back then. So even though nations like Lordaeron, Dalaran and Stromgarde fell during or shortly after the third war, the Alliance of Lordaeron still existed via Ironforge, Stormwind and Kul Tiras. Kul Tiras would later leave after IF and SW did nothing over Daelins death. Gilneas and Quel’thalas left before the third war and Alterac was destroyed due to their betrayal.

Meanwhile Thralls Horde was a complete rebranding and is separate from the Gul’dan / Orgrim Doomhammer / Ner’zhul horde from the First and Second Wars. You even had other Orcs claiming to be the real horde, Rend Blackhand and his Dark Horde for example.

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123

No, they are not.

The Alliance of Lordaeron is not the Grand Alliance. Despite having similar names, they are two different organizations.

The Alliance of Lordaeron was formed following the destruction of the Kingdom of Stormwind at the hands of the first Orc Horde. Even after the defeat of the Horde, the Alliance of Lordaeron remained strong, although it lost members after Gilneas, Stromgarde and the High Elves chose to secede, each for their own reasons:

  • Genn Greymane chafed at the idea of being taxed to pay for the construction and maintenance of the internment camps and Nethergarde Keep, but he did not officially withdraw from the Alliance until after Thrall liberated the internment camps.
  • Thoras Trollbane also chafed at the idea of being taxed to pay for the internment camps and Nethergarde Keep, but ultimately withdrew from the Alliance when Terenas Menethil II refused to slaughter all the Orcs a few years before the Third War.
  • Anesterian Sunstrider was the first to withdraw from the Alliance. Blaming them for the Horde burning down much of Quel’thalas’s forests. It was his act of abandoning the Alliance that prompted Gilneas and Stromgarde to follow suit.

However the Alliance of Lordaeron remained as a strong political entity until the Third War, when Lordaeron and Dalaran were destroyed by the Scourge and the Burning Legion. Heavily diminished, the last remnants of the Alliance of Lordaeron took the form of survivors led by Lord Garithos. When he and his men were slaughtered by Sylvanas Windrunner following the defeat of Balnazzar, the Alliance of Lordaeron ceased to exist.

The Grand Alliance (or as we know it, the Alliance) formed after the complete destruction of the Alliance of Lordaeron. Stormwind became the center of power for the new organization, and it was joined by the Dwarves of Ironforge, the Gnomes of Gnomeregan who had recently been forced out of their home and the Night Elves of Kalimdor, with some support coming from Jaina Proudmoore and her nation of Theramore.

All the other nations that were formerly part of the Alliance of Lordaeron either remained neutral (in the case of Dalaran), became hostile (in the case of Quel’thalas) or would join the new organization at a later date (Gilneas, Stromgarde and the Wildhammer Dwarves).

124

They are literally the same organization with the same members(and new ones). There was never any declaration that the Alliance ever dissolved and Genn(or anyone else) for example has never treated it as a new institution.

What happened is closer to a name change in the same vein that Dunkin Donuts has dropped the word Donuts. Even with the name change it is still the same corporation with the same function and same branches/a few new ones. Heck, they might have even had to close a few old branches. But the organization is one and the same.

If anything it has always been “the Alliance” more then it ever was the Alliance of Lordaeron or Grand Alliance.

125

They are literally not, and I went into detail explaining why.

If you choose not to read it, that’s on you.

The Alliance of Lordaeron crumbled and officially died when Lord Garithos was killed by Sylvanas Windrunner. He and his men represented the last vestiges of the Alliance of Lordaeron.

The Grand Alliance would form years later with Stormwind as the leader.

Eventually, the Alliance was ravaged by the Scourge and the Burning Legion during the Third War. Terenas led the Alliance — since the end of the Second War — until his murder almost 20 years later at the hands of Prince Arthas, leading to the collapse of Lordaeron during the Scourging of Lordaeron. Arthas attacked Quel’Thalas shortly after, ransacking the elven homeland and nearly scouring the high elves from Azeroth. The survivors of this massacre proclaimed themselves blood elves in honor of their peoples’ fall, and a group of them joined the Alliance resistance led by Grand Marshal Garithos who attempted to reclaim Lordaeron from the undead. The blood elves abandoned the Alliance resistance due to racism on behalf of its commander and left Azeroth to escape to Outland. Grand Marshal Garithos was killed in the following civil war of the Plaguelands, and the Alliance resistance fell apart soon after his death.

Memories of past allegiances and idealism ultimately inspired the new Alliance of the present day led by the Wrynn dynasty.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Alliance_of_Lordaeron

Following the Third War, the balance of power among the human kingdoms shifted. With Lordaeron’s fall and the devastation of the northern kingdoms, the kingdom of Stormwind arose as a new bastion of leadership and military might in the Alliance. This granted the kingdom immense prestige and influence on the world stage, while Stormwind City became the new base of the faction. Despite the collapse of the Alliance of Lordaeron, King Magni Bronzebeard and the dwarves of the kingdom of Ironforge remained allies of the modern Alliance, becoming their staunchest and closest geographical allies.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Alliance

Bolded for emphasis.

Despite the collapse of the Alliance of Lordaeron

Quoted again.

Basically after the Alliance of Lordaeron collapsed and died, Stormwind decided to form the Grand Alliance and reached out to King Magni, who were already allies with Stormwind and chose to join the Grand Alliance. They were followed by Gnomeregan despite their status as refugees and the Night Elves.

The Grand Alliance built on the ruined foundations that the Alliance of Lordaeron left behind. Keeping the name and many of the ideals/values, but losing the restrictions, as each nation within the Grand Alliance could choose what they did and did not want to do. Unlike the Alliance of Lordaeron where every nation was expected to chip in and support Alliance ventures, even if they didn’t agree with them.

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126

Both articles are from the FAN made/run wiki and not actual lore? Again, no character in Warcraft has ever interpreted the Alliance as having been two separate organization. There has never been any talk or lore mentioning that Garithos’ death was somehow the end of the Alliance. If anything he is a blip in lore. As a side note, Shaw also does not mention some old/new Alliance split when talking about Garithos and just say his actions cost the Alliance the blood elves. Again further proof no one ingame has ever treated the Alliance as having an “old/new” split in the same way the Horde does.

I would also point out Genn/Turalyon have mentioned reclaiming old Alliance holding. Again showing that they do not consider the two organization as separate entities.

127

The extent that they were enslaved and didn’t have a choice in what they did was greatly overrated.

So wholesale execution of any captured prisoners of war is better then yeah?

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128

warcraft.wiki.gg is a heavily curated source of lore. Yes it relies on moderators who are only human so mistakes can happen. However those mistakes are rare and quickly corrected. They also cite sources where they exist and don’t use sources declared to be non-canon (such as the Warcraft RPG).

So what I shared is canon lore. You not liking it doesn’t suddenly make it non-canon.

129

Who said anything about wholesale execution?

I said slavery was unacceptable/bad and should not happen. You can imprison a group of people without turning them into slaves.

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130

Inaccurate canon lore. Again, we have Shaw/Genn not treating the Alliance as different from the old one and considers it one and the same

King Wrynn has mustered our forces, . We mean to launch a full-scale assault on Lordaeron.

We’ll drive the Horde from the keep and reclaim it for the Alliance. It’s
been far too long since our flag flew in Tirisfal

You can’t reclaim what you never had, and if we go by your explanation then the new Alliance never had Capital City. And the last time Alliance flags flew in Tirisfal was before Arthas destroyed the kingdom.

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A day for the chance to get more Orc stuff. Thralls recreation damaged the Horde hard.

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Nope, accurate, you just don’t like it because you’re wrong.

I get it, no one likes being told they’re wrong, but I’ve cited lore and gave you links to the pages with that information on it. Take it up with the moderators of the wiki if you want it changed. Until then though, I am not going to argue with you.

As far as all lore we have available to us is concerned, the Alliance of Lordaeron died when Lord Garithos and his forces were slaughtered by Sylvanas Windrunner. The Grand Alliance was formed on the foundations that were left behind. End of story.

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And I have cited a literal ingame quote that proves your theory that the Alliance demarcated itself in the same way the Horde did is wrong.

Which is again, incorrect. Because even now Shaw mentions how he cost the Alliance the blood elves. That he didn’t say he cost the old Alliance the blood elves, but the Alliance as a general concept.

Side note:

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/World_of_Warcraft:_Game_Manual

Even so, when the orcs invaded Azeroth and set out to conquer the human, elven, and dwarven lands, the dwarves offered to join the Grand Alliance.

Jaina helped defeat the demon Archimonde and banish the Legion forever. She then gathered the human survivors in Kalimdor and founded the port city of Theramore). There she rules over the tattered remnants of the Alliance and hopes to reunite the distant human kingdoms once more.

So there we have it, a source directly from Blizzard itself and not from the fansite. The Grand Alliance is a term used to refer to the Alliance even back in Warcraft 2-3. And Jaina for example still rules the tattered remnants of the Alliance. The Alliance never ended just because Lordearon fell.

134

Exactly.

The Alliance as a ‘general concept’ because as I said, the Grand Alliance was formed on top of the foundations of the Alliance of Lordaeron.

For old warhorses like Shaw and Genn, they see the Grand Alliance no differently than they saw the Alliance of Lordaeron. Both organizations follow the same ideals, they have the same goals. They are, however, different organizations.

The Alliance of Lordaeron was formed and led by Lordaeron. It’s quite literally in the name. After Lordaeron was destroyed, the Alliance of Lordaeron, which was already struggling and getting no support from its neighbours, collapsed. The last survivors of the Alliance of Lordaeron were known as the Alliance Resistance.

During the Third War, Dalaran was destroyed by Archimonde, but many of the Burning Legion’s demons went to Kalimdor and were defeated. By the time of the Third War, Othmar Garithos had risen to the rank of Grand Marshal, promoted not necessarily due to his own abilities, but by his father’s reputation and title. He was the highest ranking survivor of Lordaeron’s military after the Scourge’s rampage across Lordaeron and he recruited what forces he could muster from both volunteers and conscripted civilians. Cut off from the chain of command, Garithos gave his human army the mission he assumed the Alliance should have always had: the preservation of humanity above all else. Ignorant of Garithos’ policies, officials from the neighbouring non-human states such as Ironforge and Quel’thalas sent him aid, recognizing him as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron’s government, and certainly the strongest warlord in the area. Lord Garithos marshalled the survivors of the Alliance of Lordaeron and managed to retake Dalaran.
…
The elves had left the Alliance resistance and the Wildhammer dwarves were seemingly annihilated, with just humans and Bronzebeard dwarves left; yet the Alliance resistance persisted and went to fight for the Capital City.

Sylvanas, Varimathras, and Garithos planned to attack the Capital City. They knew that Balnazzar could only be defeated through attrition, so Sylvanas decided that they would assault his army from two fronts. Garithos’ men would attack from the rear, while Sylvanas’ forces would attack from the front. During the battle, Garithos’ was informed that his dwarven reinforcements were lost. Infuriated, he went out to search for them. When he found them, he insulted them for their incompetence and commanded them to help him in the battle. With both armies attacking from two fronts, Balnazzar’s Forces, the Dreadlord Insurgents, and the Dreadlord Loyalists were all defeated.

Balnazzar was “killed” by his brother Varimathras. After this, Garithos ordered Sylvanas and her undead “wretched animals” to leave his city. Sylvanas, however, turned on Garithos and ordered Varimathras to kill him, which the dreadlord gladly did. The resistance is never seen again after the battle.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Alliance_resistance

The Alliance Resistance was wiped out. This is confirmed by the book Cycle of Hatred, which states that Sylvanas’s warriors slaughtered Garithos and his warriors. With his death, the last surviving vestiges of Lordaeron’s military and its government were wiped out.

Again, this is not up for debate. I am not arguing this with you. You are wrong.

And since you won’t let it go, I’m putting you on ignore. Have a nice night.

135

Again the dwarves joined the Grand Alliance when the orcs were trying to conquer EK. So this is proof the term “Grand Alliance” is not new Alliance and is just another name for the Alliance as a whole.

And again the Alliance did not die because Lordearon fell. At best it retired the use of the term Alliance of Lordaeron but it has always been referred to as the Grand Alliance. The Grand Alliance is not a replacement for it but just another name for it.

You are using a fan site and I am using the actual manual and ingame lore. You can admit you are wrong.

136

I know a handful of players who DID quit the game instantly, because of re-demonising the Horde & being lied to about a ‘morally grey’ faction war.

  • Straight up, Blizzard were just lying C worded narcs.
    They don’t care about the Horde, they claim otherwise but we all know it’s a facade. It’s just straight up BS.

World of Warcraft (not the WC games that came before, for obvious reasons) game’s history with faction-conflict over the pass few expansions is history enough of Blizzard not caring about the Horde.

If you are Horde:

You’re fodder.
Trash scum to be put down, and have the ‘glorious’ boot of the Alliance stomp down on your throat and told to behave. You’re a tool to elevate your opposing faction, nothing more.

If you are Alliance:

You’re the heroes!

Hell, even with the Lich King – Lorewise they depicted it as only the Alliance taking down Arthas, after they took dibs to pursuing him after Deathbringer. Which is kind of a kick in the face to the Forsaken race alone, not to mention the Blood Elves.

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137

I canceled my sub Til Last Titan. I know Midnight will be bad since even in Blood elves land they will make the alliance elves the Protagonist somehow.

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But they are evil.

They have Gnomes.

Sees tall grass

/Emote: Heavy breathing

139

The Alliance of Lordaeron was formed as an immediate response to an imminent invasion from the Horde, it was primarily a military alliance for the purposes of banding together to fight a specific threat. Its members began leaving only a few years after that military threat was dealt with, because they were not interested in doing peacetime stuff like building infastructure or contributing to Lordaeron’s tax revenue.

The Grand Alliance, on the other hand, was formed in peacetime with the goal creating lasting political, economic and military ties between several powers around the world. There is a sense in which they are a continuation of the original Alliance of Lordaeron, and also a sense that they are different political entities created for different purposes.

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140

Yes and no.

They are a continuation in a sense that the formation of the Grand Alliance was done in such a way that they built on the foundations that the Alliance of Lordaeron left behind when it was destroyed.

They have the same ideals, the same principles.

But that’s where the similarities end. They have a very different power structure and each Kingdom remains independent despite being part of the whole, effectively allowing them to do their own things on their own time. The act that caused the splintering of the Alliance of Lordaeron, the forced taxes to build and maintain the internment camps as well as Nethergarde Keep, is not something that could happen under the Grand Alliance. True there is a singular leader, but neither Varian nor Anduin can force any nation to do what he wants them to do. Taxes can’t be imposed, troops can’t be forced to where the leader of that nation’s military doesn’t think they should be etc.

We saw that clearly with Patch 8.1 and Darkshore, where Tyrande made it clear she was going to retake Darkshore on her own, and Genn moved his own forces to support, with no challenge from Anduin. We also saw it with the Dark Iron Dwarves and the Frost Trolls during the events of Mists of Pandaria. That likely would not have happened under the rules established by the Alliance of Lordaeron.

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