No.
The leave when you kill their guards (for which they thank you) and tell them they “can” go home. And, even so, I mean, the responses they not “you want me to go home” but “I can go home”.
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You know. People want to pain the Alliance is good guys. Good guys would care that the people they fought were enslaved, not look for rationale for “justice” that look as lot more like “revenge on a racial basis”
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the problem, IMO, is that these days the Alliance cannot ever be anything BUT 100% Good guys, and the Horde can ONLY be Good Guys in as much as they Agree With The Alliance.
There used to actually be shades of grey, but it’s become evident that literally no one at Blizz knows what that phrase means anymore outside of the Art Department.
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You’re misstating it, you do not have to kill a nearby guard. That’s untrue.
Again, you just tell they can leave and they do. The prompt for them to go is using the dialogue option. And nobody makes an effort to stop them when you do. These NPC’s being named Pandaren Volunteer.
And to compare the children the Horde captured are called “Captive Pandaren Cub”.
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You’re talking about torturing, enslaving, and forced gladitorial battles. The conditions of the Orc Internment camps are some of the most horrific things in the entire setting (espescially since they resemble real life atrocities more than a lot of the over the top stuff that usually is written as atrocities.)
And the torture and gladitorial battles were not even part of the mandate for the internment camps, it was something Blackmoore did of his own account and Terenas was annoyed when he learned about it.
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Absolutely not.
You lost me, right there. In no universe is slavery an appropriate punishment.
Hell, with comments like yours Blizzard doesn’t have to make the Alliance the bad guys, we already are.
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Not even remotely. The concentration camps were the lesser of two horrible and evil options when it came to the orcs. But make no mistake, the camps were absolutely horrible and the worse part of it all is that Terenas himself KNEW what was going on and didn’t care and was willing to turn a blind eye to it as long as Lordaeron got it’s cut of the profits
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Ah collective guilt build on racism I swear I saw this story somewhere before wonder how the guys doing it went after that.
Yeah, just to be clear when I said Terenas was annoyed when he found out about how Blackmoore was running the camps, he was not upset enough about it to tell him to stop as long as the revenue flowed towards Lordaeron.
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Sad thing is I already pointed this out to him and he still used that line.
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Dude. The whole point of being there is attack the base. You have another quest to kills the guards. Trying to hang your hate on how Blizzard set up the set of quests is lame.
And no. the don’t tell you they can leave. The ask if, now that you are there (the enemy of the people guarding them) if they can then leave.
The intent of the author is clear. He tells you he thinks the Pandarans don’t want to be building a base but they are being forced to. You go there. Once you are there (rather than their guards), they tell you they didn’t want to be building the base and ask if, now that you (the Horde player) is there if they can leave.
Otherwise, the dialog doesn’t make much sense. The responses are not “you want me to go home” but “I can go home”.
And yes, they call them “volunteers”. It is, in fact, a common euphemism used to cover forced labor. They may have volunteered initially. But if you aren’t allowed to leave when you want, its forced labor, regardless of how you got there.
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Every time you get nailed down on an issue, you start throwing out irrelevant attacks to distract from the issue.
I do appreciate the lack of personal attacks. But the disingenuous posting is tiresome.
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You’re the one who mentioned guard killing in a discussion related to enslavement, which seems relevant in regards to their ability to leave. So fair play to say no you’re wrong after you brought it up.
You can look at the quest. You just tell them they can go and they do. They have different lines before you say this, just from the video I rewatched.
“Wow… these Alliance sure do have us working hard…”
“Why do these guys have so many weapons?”
“She wipes the sweat from her brow. Hello there, [class}. You here to help?”
The complaints of “I haven’t had a beer break in hours!” don’t really make sense if they’re actually enslaved. It isn’t the kind of response you’d get. Or something like, “You’re right. I didn’t sign up to build a war base.”
Everything speaks to poor working conditions. But I’m just not seeing enslavement.
And yet we don’t have any euphemisms when it comes to the captured children.
No, that’s on point. The comparison is because it highlights the other mirrored quest lacks any such euphemisms. It doesn’t say “Visiting Children” or any imaginable stand-in. It unambiguously refers to them as captives.
As I’ve said before, it is possible there’s something going on we’re not seeing as players. That these are euphemisms. That the Alliance actually physically stopped them from leaving. But no, we don’t really see that and I’m not inclined to think it happened from what they say and what they’re called.
If you show up somewhere as an army, and ask a bunch of civilians of another nation to do labor for you while you hold all the weapons, you don’t actually have to directly point any weapons at anyone for the implicit threat to come across.
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If we’re speaking of author intent, I think its fair to remind those in this discussion of Metzen’s own words regarding the Alliance during Mists of Pandaria.
“Lawful Good Overdrive.”
Word of God of the nature of the Alliance (as of Mists of Pandaria). I think it’s rather telling that this quest is about as bad as it gets from them, that the Pandaren volunteer to help them, but then are too polite to stand up for their morals when they realize just what it is they’re helping to build.
I’ll admit to some personal bias, but when I did those quests on a Horde character, the Pandaren asking, “Can I go home now,” after me telling them to leave, seemed more afraid of me (the Horde player) than anything else. I just swooped in and killed some people. I’m standing there, dripping in blood, and telling these Pandaren to stop helping and go away.
However, the Horde wasn’t intended to look good during Mists of Pandaria. They were committing atrocities, all to build towards Garrosh taking the fall. It’s small wonder the counterpart to, “Volunteers get cold feet,” is, “The Horde stole our cubs and have demons holding them prisoner unless we build their fortress so they can, ‘paint the continent red.’”
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personally I’m so sick of the faction war stuff I could spit. As fun as Horde vs Alliance battles are, the reasons they come up with to make it happen always feel contrived and unsatisfying. Maybe PVP stuff should strictly be certain subfactions of the Horde and Alliance fighting, like the Stormpike vs the Frost Wolves.
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Or you would realize the good guys were forced into a crappy choice and the only option left was imprisonment of what would have remained a genocidal force otherwise.
I would also point out if the Horde had a problem with it, maybe they should take it up with their blood elven/Forsaken allies considering the blood elves wanted to kill all of them/the Forsaken were part of the people who imprisoned them.
The internment camps were one of those, ‘Sounds good on paper, was terrible in practice,’ situations.
The intent of the camps was to imprison the Orcs and work towards rehabilitation so that they could some day integrate into the societies of the Alliance.
Another take is, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
Mismanagement, under-funding, and unchecked racism resulted in the camps being a humans rights violation (by real world standards, mind you). As with Doomhammer overlooking the torture of Stormwind civilians, it doesn’t matter how Terenas felt about the internment camps; he still allowed it to happen while fully aware of it.
That having been said, bringing up the internment camps is a strange move when discussing the Alliance. As with the Horde, there was a clear break between the Alliance of the Second War, and that of the modern setting. It’s no longer the Alliance of Lordaeron, just as the Horde is now the New Horde.
I think its up to players to decide the boundaries of their discussion, but if one is to discount the past atrocities of the Horde as, ‘a different Horde,’ then holding the atrocities of the past Alliance to the current Alliance is disingenuous.
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Terenas was fighting to keep the Alliance together. Heck, the Alliance would not have fallen apart(or at least might have one less reason to fall apart) if he just aqisended to the like of Genn or Anestarian who just wanted to kill all the orcs.
Could he have done better? Sure, but he was barely holding on as it was.
I have never subscribe to the idea there was ever a “new” Alliance. Unlike the Horde it as an organization never dissolved and its members are now literally the same members from warcraft 2 with new additions.
As for the Horde, sure it says its “new” but it decided to keep honoring its horrible past(like naming things about genocidal murders) and taking up a name of an organization that should have died in a fire. There is a reason both Saurfang/Anduin mention how Slyvanas was the heir of Doomhammer/Arthas and Daelin were ghost of the Alliance.
Also the Kirin Tor noticed that the orcs were becoming lethargic and wanted to know if there was a third party that made them the way they were. Which of course we would learn that there was. Mannaroth.
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Even with that being the case, that does not change the state of the internment camps. Whatever the reasoning, an atrocity was being committed with his knowledge, and he chose not to intercede and correct it. You may argue there was no choice to be had, but that is patently wrong. There is always a choice. Terenas made the more pragmatic choice to preserve the Alliance.
That doesn’t change the fact he had a choice, and chose to allow the atrocities of the internment camps to continue. Whether or not that was vital to the survival of the planet is immaterial to the point: he knowingly permitted the obscene conditions of the internment camps, and the maltreatment of the orcs to continue.
One could argue it was a no-win scenario and that line of thought would certainly have merit. It still won’t change what happened.
It’s called the, ‘Grand Alliance.’ The leadership was largely different than the Alliance of Lordaeron, as was it’s structure of command. The, ‘Grand Alliance,’ had no hand in atrocities such as the internment camps. Stormwind, Ironforge, and Gnomeregan were all far removed from that and had no hand in it.
Any Orcs with grievances about the camps would be best off turning to the Forsaken for reparations, rather than the modern Alliance. Sadly, we’re denied what could be an interesting story because then it really doesn’t make the Forsaken being in the Horde all that logical.
Not that it ever was. I mean, Grom’s corpse couldn’t have even been cold when Thrall of all people allowed a Dreadlord into the Horde. In a position of authority, no less. Damn, Vanilla had some really poor story choices in the name of rule of cool, and that’s rotted the lore ever since.