but they funny lol
gallywix must stay in charge for this reason also
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After MoP, WoD and Bfa I think itâs time the Horde gets their own feel good expansion.
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It was a horrible act.
The ending to Warcraft 2 for the Horde isnât canon, so using it as a point of contention isnât really something that works. Also, all records of Orgrim Doomhammer paint him as an Orc who did not relish war with Stormwind, and fought them because he had little choice. He also left Stormwind refugees/survivors alone and did not torture and slaughter them.
He did not relish the way the orcs would survive was by conquering Stormwind and making it their new home. If they did not defeat their enemies, they would be at the mercy of a strange world. Warchief Doomhammer ordered the clans to prepare for one final assault. They were moving before the sun had set. Stormwind City was conquered by the mighty Doomhammer. The First War was over. The Horde stood victorious. But its Warchief was anything but happy. Orgrim had no means nor the inclination to pursue Stormwindâs refugees. The Horde had taken heavy losses to achieve victory, and he knew he needed to secure his conquered land before facing any new enemies.
But back to the camps.
When the humans put the Orcs into the camps, they exposed them to appalling conditions. The human commanders of the camps would enslave them for their own personal use, sell them to their friends as slaves, gamble on whether they lived or died in the arena etc. So they were subjected to far more than just imprisonment. None of that was acceptable.
So yes, criticizing the Alliance for their actions regarding the camps is a valid criticism. Even if you argue that imprisonment for what they did was the right call. The slavery and arena fighting was unacceptable.
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Horde is eventually gonna dissolve. They have been setting it up for a while now.
I mean, thereâs gotta be a lot more context than that. For example, in Valâsharah, was constantly insulting us and threatened us when the gameâs forcing us to help her rescue her husband. And in Shadowlands, we got constant lectures about how weâre evil for the Burning of Teldrassil, when many of us didnât ask for it.
But if an Alliance leader starts a war of aggression against us, and we get to fight him back? Sounds pretty satisfying imo.
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Not being able to leave. Iâll fix the typo.
Probably not when the method of âfeeling goodâ is hamfistedly making the other faction evil, Cata and BfA arenât universally, or even mostly beloved by Alliance players either, and MoP isnât hated by that many Horde.
It was not at all evil, unless evil in the sense of negligence in that they should have exterminated them all to prevent future people from being killed by orcs.
Iâll let this excerpt from Tides of Darkness speak for itself.
âEverywhere he turned there was destruction and devastation. Buildings burned despite being made of stone. Bodies and rubble littered the street. Blood flowed across the flagstones, pooling here and there. Screams indicated that survivors had been found and were being tortured. Doomhammer nodded. It was good.â
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The thing is the quests notes they volunteered. From what I recall, they arenât chained up. Their children arenât hostages like the Horde had. And some of the lines donât really make it sound like they were âenslavedâ.
Using the hammer was fun, but I think Iâm ready to go home now.
I suppose it is time I headed home.
These working conditions are horrible! We havenât had a beer break in HOURS!
A some of the lines sound worse but are still vaguely ambiguous as to what happened.
The pandaren helping the Alliance initially volunteered, but then the Alliance soldiers started forcing them to stay and work. The Horde parallel had them take the children hostage to force the pandaren to keep working.
In both cases, the entrenched Alliance and Horde forces at the opening footholds in Pandaria are both revealed to be succumbing to the corruption of the sha, so in those particular examples, their worsening treatment of the locals - while indeed reprehensible - was being driven by their emotional and mental states being twisted and magnified by an (at the time) unknown agency. The leadersâ personal logs even show that while the Horde commander starts out with a more aggressive mindset (basically in keeping with Garroshâs mandate to claim Pandaria before the Alliance can get established there), both of them and their troops had begun losing control of themselves by the time things got out of hand to the point of abusing the natives and they werenât really fully rational any more.
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Either you want Alliance leaders to be more confrontational and gritty and less nicey nice, or you donât. If the writers get that much reaction from people based on mean words, then they have zero need to make them harsher or more bloodthirsty, in their own view. Our characters have worked for far more abrasive or even outright evil characters before out of necessity, but when itâs an Alliance leader for some reason people backpedal on what they want.
We will never get more angsty or gritty faction leaders that dislike the other faction, Horde especially, because if they arenât within the certain expected archetype for âangry warmongerâ, but still act somewhat confrontational, thatâs all thatâs needed to rile people up against them.
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This has seemingly been retconned then. As Chronicle Vol II paints him as a very different Warchief, who did not relish in slaughter and torture.
Again, they forced the Orcs to fight to the death in arenas for their own entertainment and they forced them to become slaves, Blackmoore even sold Orcs from the camps to his friends who paid good money for them.
These are horrible acts and the Alliance should be criticized for allowing them to take place. It was no secret what was happening there. Terenas Menethil II knew and was fine with what was happening as long as Lordaeron got their cut of the profits.
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I, personally, do want the Alliance to serve an antagonistic role later on, but I donât want Horde players to be forced to quest with them and put up with it. I think THAT is what makes Tyrandeâs threats and other stuff not land when Horde players are helping her. Unless they also go around making Alliance equivalents of this scenario.
Iâd say Nathanos is a counter-example though. Some people love his attitude, while others detest him for constantly insulting our toons while we do all the work, as well as of course being a war criminal we had to serve alongside Sylvanas.
I mean, have you seen complaints about warfront dialogue, for example. Both sides are taunting each other. But we get to beat the other leader in the end. So itâs not the same at all as Tyrande sitting there and threatening us or reminding us of teldrassil, imo.
An example that isnât faction related would be the Lich King showing up throughout Wrath questing. Iâm pretty sure thatâs considered a highlight of the questing experience
Iâd respect this more than continuing to play as the Red Alliance. Just give all Horde characters the option to pledge themselves to the Alliance or be an outcast.
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No it wonât. It will always be a faction within WoW. Blizzard isnât going to get rid of it or the Alliance.
It may change considerably from what it was during the vanilla days (and clearly already has), but there wonât be a period in WoW where people go: âOh, the Horde as a faction was removed from the game in Patch X.X.Yâ
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You posted a bunch of more neutral lines and then made a vague reference to some of them being âworseâ?
The quest giver states he thinks they didnât want to build and airbase. Then we hear them sayâŚ
âCan⌠can I go home?
Get me out of here!
I can leave now?â
So they couldnât leave when they wanted toâŚ
âYouâre right. I didnât sign up to build a war base.â
Further confirmation that the quest giver was right.
Except they do when told. We see no actual force employed against them. And when some are upset about not having a beer for few hours, no Iâm not buying the âenslavedâ idea.
Whereas the Horde we directly see hostage children held by, I think, a demon?
âSeeminglyâ Okay so its not actually retconned in any way that matters? Unless we have text of Orgrim saying âI do not enjoy torture and slaughterâ the statement isnât actually retconned.
All appropriate punishments for the prisoners of war who were waging a war of extermination against them.
Here we go again. Alliance always justified no matter what right? The blue community never fails to deliver.
âWonderful news, Horde players! Weâve heard your complaints, and this next expansion has many feel-good moments just for the Horde, as again and again and again get to bask in the glory of his Most Perfect golden holiness of Anduin Christ, learning how thereâs nothing better than being told how much you should love him, just like we ourselves already do!â
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