They absolutely should return ranged SV, but there’s no way they will delete melee SV to make it happen.
They should either make a fourth spec (least likely), or truly add SV onto either MM tree (like they promised), or into the BM tree. I mean, would it be so bad to have a level 15 talent called Survivalist that replaces Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire, or Kill Command with Explosive Shot and Black Arrow?
PvPers and MM hunters always complain that BM does no damage outside of its pet. What better way to divert some damage away from the pet and onto the player than by making these abilities available on the tree?
Or why not just unprune the ranged SV primary abilities so each spec has access to them, but have a talent on MM and BM trees that buff them to the point that you could use them in place of your standard abilities, and causes your primary attacks (Kill Command and AiS) to be Uncastville? I don’t understand why there aren’t better options for the players that miss RSV.
No. I’ll be blunt. The 1% niche population that Melee has. Is in no way, shape or form more important than the overwhelming percentage and support that Ranged had. And this is a big part of the issue. You melee fanatics act like you guys are Ions gift to Azeroth. Very, very few people like Survival in this current iteration. And it shows. But rather than side with the masses who just want Ranged to come back, while keeping the niche spec 1% of 1% of 1% may like. You guys would rather fight us till the second coming of Deathwing.
…Cherry picking much? PvP is stupid. Arena is stupid. The overwhelming majority of players who do care give a rats booty about serious pvp, much less arena. So sure, “85%” with a decent rating may be a good chunk in arena. But, how does that hold up to rogues, or warlocks, or mages. Or demon hunters, or, or, or. Exactly. Survival is a niche spec that can do okay in arena and can even do well in PvE. But because it’s such a niche spec that is anti hunter in every way, if not downright unfun to the majority, and lacking any type of utility. It is niche. You can spit pointless PvP facts out all you want, But the majority of a minority is still a minority no way you spin it. Sorry, not sorry.
Besides, Ranged Survival was the PvP spec as well. You…know this, right? So it isn’t surprising at all that killing the PvP spec and leaving 2 specs that are genuinely weak in PvP, will by default make MSV the go to for the higher rated stuff.
By god, someone else gets it! Huzzah! I want to put emphasis on what I bolded though. This is the crux of the issue. Survival WAS NOT MADE FOR HUNTERS. ION SAID THIS. So this nonstop fight between the majority who like RSV and the minority who like the nichness of MSV will never stop. MSV wasn’t made for hunters. In doing so, this alienated its core. Doubly so when the spec involved was the most popular hunter spec and consistently was one of the most popular specs in the entire game.
Clueless. Completely clueless.
From inception. Survival was NEVER melee(even in yee early days with Lacerate, it was still designed around ranged, while not being useless in melee). Hunters as a whole were designed around ranged combat. But due to the deadzone each spec could utilize Raptor Strike and Wing Clip, along with tools like traps, concussive shot, etc… to stay at ranged. Survival was just that, survival. It was designed around improving the tools it had, to ensure it stayed at ranged. Talents like Entrapment and Improved Wing Clip further emphasized this. Could it do some damage in melee? Sure. It had Savage Strikes which increased the critical chance of Raptor Strike and Mongoose bite. As well as Counterattack which was usable after Parrying, though this also rooted the target. Giving the player a chance to get back to ranged.
Again. Survival was Survival. All hunters were designed around ranged damage to be optimal. But where BM put the emphasis on your pet and MM put the emphasis on damage, SV went the defensive route. It provided all the tools necessary to stay at ranged, or quickly get back to ranged, while also making melee situations not instantly a GG for the hunter due to the Deadzone. But hell, even BM and MM could use Raptor Strike and Wing Clip. Doesn’t make them melee specs. /shrug.
Also, to counter your “was garbage” comment. Survival was actually the best DPS for Hunters once Naxx rolled around due to the extra agility from Lightning Reflexes.
So…You didn’t play hunter. Melee wasn’t designed for Hunters. Not attacking, just using this as further emphasis that MSV was not targeted at people who already played hunters.
BC for me. The changes to Survival and Demonology that came after they killed both specs to prep for Legion, have been among the worst changes in this games history in my opinion.
How about we don’t thanks. The spec is fine, they just need to figure out how to tune it properly. I have mained it since day one of legion. I have been a hunter since cata, everything before that was a prot paladin. So you can’t give me the you just don’t know old SV talk. I love it personally. So for every one player like you who cry’s about it. You have another enjoying it like crazy.
It’s super fun in pvp. Has a ton of utility. We just don’t hit hard enough in raid/dungeons. Even that being said, I managed to get 2.2k io with the spec just pugging. So hopefully they just tune us a little better. We still have over a month before SL drops. I am sure they are testing numbers.
Prior to Legion, SV have never been a “melee-spec”. Prior to Cata, there wasn’t even a spec called Survival. Only a talent category.
And talent categories were never designed to completely alter our gameplay in the past. Nothing you could pick from any category as a hunter back then resulted in a deviation from the default class mechanics, those primarily focused on ranged combat(meaning you wanted to use ranged attacks as much as possible).
Saying that picking talents from SV back then made you a “melee-hunter” is like saying that talents mostly from BM allowed us to become literal beasts(as in the hunter no longer mattered, and we should now only fight by using Eyes of the Beast, druid-style). After all, BM talents mostly strengthened our pets right?
We are all different and we connect with different elements in the game.
Classic does not provide what people refer to when saying that they want “ranged SV” back. Not even close.
While there will always be those who likes something, they essentially did say that “the SV rework wasn’t necessarily meant for then-current hunters but for other players”.
That right there is IMO a horrible way to go about making changes to classes.
It’s like if I was to say that I don’t like the current Warrior specs we have. I want Warriors to have a healing spec so therefor, they should remove either Arms or Fury and add that in instead. It’s enough if they have 1 tank spec and 1 dps spec anyway… Note: I will NEVER actually say that.
Having said that, we are already past the changes they made to hunters so, rather than doing the same thing all over again, just reversed, bring back what was deleted as it’s own thing.
Yep.
Back then, the class wasn’t designed to have multiple defined/dedicated playstyle that were mutually exclusive with one another, like what we see today with Core Specializations.
Back then, there was only the class itself and it’s default class mechanics. Talents only served to build on that concept and they never intended us to deviate from it to any major degree.
What stinks the most is we have another two years before the devs actually revisit classes and then it’ll be six years since they removed the spec. I want to see RSV come back, but that amount of wait time is just ridiculous. I have lost all faith in the class development since the spec identity crisis they went through for Legion. Its disappointing, to say the least. I enjoy the game and some of the community, but its just not as fun as it used to be. I barely recognize the class I’ve played exclusively since BC. I’m not getting any younger, and I fear that by the time Ion pulls his head out of the sand to return RSV to its former glory, it’ll be too late for me. I won’t even get to see its triumphant return.
Yep. Coupled with the fact that we still have no idea whether a change in mindsets is even on the table.
We can’t really say that “it isn’t” as, we all know the devs frequently change their minds on a lot of things, incl the idea that no class should have a 4th spec. But at the same time, we have no idea whether they will actually start to listen to the feedback provided.
I find that the general idea of having defined core specs with fairly unique identities, is a good one. It further allows players to make choices more in line with their preferences. I just think that they should reconsider their past notions of restricting classes in terms of available gameplay options(core specs).
I’m not saying that every class should have 10 specs each. But if we take RSV as an example. Contrary to what some people like to post on the forums, RSV had A LOT of potential to be further developed as a dedicated core spec, with a design fitting of the modern game and it’s philosophies. Incl those pertaining to the ideas of “Spec Fantasy” and “Spec Identity”.
Some say that it’s not possible to design another hunter spec focusing on using ranged weapons, while maintaining a distinguishing approach, separate to that of the other, existing specs we have right now.
I say, it would be the easiest thing in the world(of class development). Because RSV from the beginning had a unique approach to how you wanted to go about, playing it. What it’s damage model was all about.
Much of that is true, and I agree on it in many ways.
For me though, the biggest problem, other than the fact that they decided to delete what, to many players, was arguable the most fun playstyle in the game, is that they insist on classes being designed to rely on external “borrowed power”-systems in order to even feel remotely finished.
I want classes to feel complete/finished by default, and any external systems added(themed after specific expansions or otherwise), serve only as to build on the foundation that is the class.
Not like it is now where there is no foundation unless you combine your class with what’s up next in the upcoming expansion.
Melee Survival is interesting to me, and fun to take into pvp. I don’t want to see it removed. I want to see Ranged Survival returned. I stand by any player that enjoys melee survival. I don’t want them to lose a spec, too. This is something I find I am passionate about, because you see arguments on the hunter forums every single day about the removal of ranged survival and addition of melee. My community has been split over it for four years now, and (for lack of a better term) it sucks.
Only problem with this solution is, one would end up being better, and if it isn’t your preferred playstyle, you won’t be happy. Sure some players wouldn’t care and still play what they enjoy, but still, could see it being an issue balance wise and causing problems.
Look to what is going on with Frost DKs atm with Blizz not able to figure out and balance 2h vs DW.
True but we already have that issue right now with MM v BM. I really miss Legion MM and right now i feel forced into BM (ranged warrior it feels like tbh, faceroll keys in a given order with infinite movement and zero downtime).
It’s Sunday morning and I see this post, Make Survival Ranged and I smile. Then find it is flagged? Oh! It is Sunday Morning. Hugs Aviela.
Melee Survival is quite boring, and since my main solo toon for over a decade was a Survival hunter and switch to Marks, which is equally as boring. I think I am qualified to say, I would like my ranged Survival hunter back.
I hate Beast Master, I will never play Beast Master ever. If you like it, great - go find your special pets and transmog them or whatever you do. I have tried BM a few times, even if it was to get a rare hunter pet because I was there. I think most BM’s are that spec because it is simple, and it is over powered.
Pandaria’s Survival Hunter was the absolutely most fun that class ever was, if you disagree then you did not play a Survival Hunter before, then, since or now. They should make it possible to spec a hunter back to a ranged/pet kite and dot.
You’re either a troll, or you have zero common sense. Hunters already have two ranged specs. There is no need to make a third. I enjoy survival being a melee spec. Hunting doesn’t always require a ranged weapon.
Ranged Survival was a completely different play style, if you ever played it as a main you would known that. We have lost that kite and dot style completely.
I used my pet as a secondary utility with maintaining range with my target, and using it for crowd control with mobs. As a current Survival hunter I don’t even use the class as they designed it because it is dumb. Harpoon is useless, along with Wingclip and Tar Trap. Maybe if you were PvP but they have killed that part of the game completely, perhaps if Camoflage was not a talent but then you are just a Rogue with a pet.
Okay. If the hunter specs are all the same. Then Enhancement is identical to Elemental because they both can use Lightning bolt. Is a dumb thing to say, is it not?
Ranged Survival was consistent damage via dots. Serpent Sting, Black Arrow, Explosive Shot.
As numerous advocates of RSV have said time and time again, we don’t want MSV to be removed, because it does have a community, despite how niche its representation is. But given RSV was the most popular hunter spec and among the most popular specs in the entire game up until it was killed(along with Demo) during the end of HFC in WoD, to prep for the Legion changes, and considering how split the playerbase STILL is, 4 years later. It should absolutely make a return.
They have tried to shift the SV playstyle into MM via talents. But it doesn’t work. Mechanically MM and SV are very different. The foundation isn’t there for RSV to work with the current MM. But adding RSV back, as a fourth spec, would be a very easy thing to do since the foundation already exists, it’d just have to be brought back.
But as usual, most MSV people are against this. Why? Are you afraid that a return of RSV(while keeping MSV intact) will prove just how popular RSV was? Genuinely curious. If it makes sense, a 4th spec is logical. Does a 4th spec make sense for Rogues? Nah. Warlocks? Not really. Priests? Not really(though an argument could be made there due to old Shadow and Voidform). But hunters, absolutely make sense for a 4th spec. Guardian and Feral were split because they were tied to the same talent tree, thus diluting the potential of each spec. Which is exactly what Blizzard has tried to do with RSV since removing it. Throwing some of its abilities in the MM talent tree. It just doesn’t work. They don’t work with what MM is.
Bring it back as a fourth spec. Keep playing MSV if you enjoy it. But let those of us who played RSV, some of us for over a decade, get out spec back too. You lose nothing. We gain something we lost. If nothing else, it’d stop the infighting that has ensued in the hunter community ever since.
No we haven’t? It actually plays very similar. The idea is keep your dots rolling and fight in melee. However if you see your opponent pop cooldowns, or have to move out of something in a raid. You then just pop fury of the eagle and can do your full rotation outside of auto attack damage from range for 15 seconds. That gives you more than enough time to do what you need to and get back into it.
How are abilitys like Harpoon, Wingclip, and Tar Trap useless? Wingclip is just a basic slow that many classes have like Frostshock, Chains of Ice, etc. It’s designed for PvP. Harpoon is super useful in general. I cannot tell you how often I use it to completely dodge mechanics jumping out to an ad, or bait a DH to waste all their dash onto me then harpoon back to their healer while they walk to me. Tar Trap, iunno how you can say this is bad. One of the best kiting tools in the game. When its a Necrotic week my tanks literally nut as they see it go down every single pull. You literally don’t know the spec if you are making these claims, or you play at a low skill ceiling.
I think a lot of people get hung up on the talent name, as opposed to the skills and talents.
Personally I think they should work on developing talent trees that are more robust and dynamic, so that there are options to build you toon the way you want to play.
Is the goal now to get a 4th spec for hunters in 10.0? It won’t happen for SL or any of the patches in SL.
That means that all this energy could be devoted towards discussing how to make the current melee version work and then revisiting this discussion again at the end of SL.
Regarding the ‘can we go back to MOP’ style hunter. I don’t think we are unique in wanting that and a lot of specs would claim that their hay day was during the MOP era. Locks casting while moving / snapshotting anyone?