What is Alleria then? Is she still a High Elf who’s just full of Void energy but not an actual Void Elf? To be honest, I assumed Blizzard didn’t colour her blue to keep her visually distinct from Sylvanas.
Well not that they existed, that there were many. So many they apparently even come close to their only kingdom that had ninety percent of them killed.
We’re even assuming these groups weren’t counted as being ‘of Quel’thalas’. That’s why I consider this number fudging. It is wishful thinking at best. At worst it is trying to double dip on certain counting (like between Dalaran and Jaina’s Expedition).
You bitc hes ruined my thread about Umbric
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(Query): Do numbers honestly really matter in the grand scheme of things? We’ve been through so many wars I can’t figure out how the Horde and Alliance aren’t just a handful of people left in crumbling buildings.
(Commentary): It’s known that there were High Elves in the Alliance against the wishes of Anasterian as of the time of the Third War. I don’t think counting these individuals as being, ‘of Quel’Thalas,’ is really applicable. Likewise, the Alliance expedition was written off as lost, so they definitely would not factor into such figures. Lastly, Dalaran is it’s own kingdom, and not a vassal state of Quel’Thalas. We also know it’s population was largely evacuated with only a small skeleton crew of powerful mages left to tend it’s defenses during the Third War. Considering Jaina Proudmoore had representatives even from Gilneas, it’s safe to say that her expedition to Kalimdor wasn’t solely made up of Dalaran’s population.
(Conclusion): As I stated before, we don’t have numbers for High Elves outside of Quel’Thalas during the Third War. I think it’s foolish to try to write them off in any capacity as either a large or small group. All we can say for certain is that Dalaran alone had a sizable enough population of them for a Para-Military to form (the Silver Covenant), without affecting the city’s services or even the Kirin Tor’s own number of Mages.
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Taking what you mean by ‘the grand scheme of things’ at face value, I don’t think so. I just don’t like what I perceive as dishonesty (without offense intended) for the sake of a liked group. If something said ‘there are tons of High Elves out there’, can’t say I’d care. But I see this sort of overly wishful presentation on how many High Elves are out there as just questionable.
I primarily disagree with the presentation of Dalaran. As of Shadow of the Sun, seems as though one can be living in Dalaran and being of Quel’thalas. Arguably that was the situation Kael’thas was in at the time. A prince of Quel’thalas living in Dalaran and a member of their ruling council. But he certainly wasn’t not a member of the kingdom. I really do think any of Dalaran or Jaina’s group would still be within a loss projection.
(Commentary): I feel much the same way, but typically in reverse. When someone says Blood Elves are 90% of their race, they’re either unintentionally or intentionally misinforming others. WoW’s website makes it clear only 90% of the kingdom, specifically, was wiped out, and during Arthas’ attack on it. The survivors of that became Blood Elves, who then suffered about 10% defection after refusing to drain mana from living beings.
(Commentary): I disagree. That is not to say that there weren’t elves in Dalaran who weren’t citizens of Quel’Thalas there for study or other purposes, but I imagine the bulk of that group left with Kael’thas when he heard the news about the fall of Quel’Thalas and went to return to his homeland. That was also prior to the attack on Dalaran happening.
(Observation): It would seem to me that the safest course of that would be that any elf who was, ‘of Quel’Thalas,’ would have returned to it and become a Blood Elf at some point between WC3 and Burning Crusade. If the High Elves with Jaina were actually, ‘of Quel’Thalas,’ they should’ve immediately returned to Quel’Thalas after hearing of it’s fall. This is of course ignoring the fact that such High Elves were among those whom refused Anasterian’s command to return to Quel’Thalas and leave the Alliance. Jaina’s expedition was not an extension of the Kingdom of Dalaran, but an initiative all member-states and forces of the Alliance seem to have taken part in.
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Neither…she’s some kind of freak that literally ate a Dark Naaru. She’s the Illidan of the Void Elves.
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Someone never ran any island expeditions on a Horde toon.
The difference is I’m saying you are doing this right now. I’ve said various times that I think High Elves and Blood Elves barely should exist given their continuous wars. It does not add up and should be addressed.
Where is that number from? If you can’t source it, it seems very dishonest.
You do imagine this, yes. You are reading excessively into it to justify your belief.
Again, that seems highly presumtive. Even Alleria seems to consider herself loyal to Quel’thalas, but she thought all her actions outside it were still relevant. And all things considered, you’re ignoring how many High Elves not loyal to Quel’thalas must have died in the later conflicts.
The safest course seems to be that given this is a race of ‘superior’ xenophobes that had ninety percent killed. And that of those few that lived in Dalaran and elsewhere (and are supposed expatriots) who also suffered a lot of death (The destruction of Dalaran, the Third War, Theramore’s destruction, the Shattering of Outland) that they’re probably a percent of a percent.
(Observation): The same is honestly true of just about every race at this point.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blood_elf#Reclaiming_Quel.27Thalas
"The Scourge invasion of Quel’Thalas ended with the slaughter of roughly 90% of the high elven people. Following the Quel’dorei’s decimation at the hands of the Scourge, Kael’thas rallied roughly 90% of the survivors, who took up the name “blood elf” in honor of their fallen brethren"
“There is a question regarding the current blood elf population: the high elf population of survivors was estimated around 1,481, or 10%, meaning the 90% that became blood elves would be put at least 13,329.”
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quel%27Lithien_Lodge
“It was here that the banished rangers under Renthar Hawkspear took up residence after Grand Magister Rommath’s return from Outland; Renthar and his group had dissented against Rommath’s teachings on moral grounds. To avoid the nation becoming divided on the issue, as the teachings had been an essential boon to the elves, Lor’themar, now Quel’Thalas’ regent, exiled the group south.”
(Observation): It seems the most likely outcome. How else does one justify Dalaran having a significant enough High Elven population to not only support the establishment of a paramilitary, but also a civilian base, as well as membership with the Kirin Tor? High Elves in Dalaran are spread over these three distinct groups quite well.
(Commentary): That was not an established criteria of the discussion. For that matter, how many Blood Elves and Void Elves have died over the later conflicts? From the sources I listed above, of the 90% of the survivors of Quel’Thalas who became Blood Elves, 15% were taken by Kael’thas to Outland. How many died in his campaign in Outland under Illidan, or in Garithos’ suicide missions, or fighting Arthas in Northrend, before we players even had a crack at them in BC? That’s not even counting that the defection of the Scryers was described as the biggest lost in manpower Kael’thas had suffered to date.
(Commentary): I disagree. We simply do not have enough information to determine such numbers. The only numbers we have are relevant to Quel’Thalas and what it suffered during the Third War.
(Query): Perhaps you yourself are suffering from the predicament you described earlier?
(Commentary): I won’t seriously claim that the High Elves are any kind of sizable population. I’ll offer it as speculation or hyperbole, but I do feel that, on average, there are more High Elves lorewise than people give credit for. They’re far too visible for that to be otherwise, have too many different population centers.
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Most High Elves did not “defect” after refusing to drain mana from living beings. That was the rationale given, specifically, for the group at Quel’Lithien Lodge, who are now defunct anyway. Most High Elves already lived in Alliance territories (primarily Dalaran, the Hinterlands, and Stromwind, plus a group that traveled with Algeria to Outland) and seem to have simply stuck with the Alliance rather than return to Quel’Danas.
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…it’s funny how you rejected this reasoning when it came to Horde races…
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(Commentary): By bringing together various sources, we have a clear picture.
- 90% of the Kingdom of Quel’Thalas was destroyed by Arthas and the Scourge.
- Of the survivors, 90% would call themselves Blood Elves. The other 10% would call themselves High Elves.
- Those who refused the mana draining techniques were exiled from Quel’Thalas because Lor’themar could not rule a nation divided. The only information we have about this group is that Renthar Hawkspear and his rangers resettled in Quel’Lithien Lodge.
(Observation): All of the above facts, from sources linked previously, have to do with the population of the Kingdom of Quel’Thalas. Not once is any group of High Elves outside of Quel’Thalas brought up in the figures of 90%, 10%, etc…
(Query): Could you clarify this point?
Again, a distraction since we’re not talking about every other race. We are talking about your claims.
This is precisely the dishonesty I mean. There’s no actual source on the pages you link for that. That’s an estimate based on no actual lore numbers because it is an estimate.
One doesn’t justify it in-so-far as attrition rate versus engaged forces is chaotic when writing is bad. It is unjustifiable.
Sure it was, the discussion was, ’ not that they existed, that there were many .’ We’re talking about the survivors in comparison to each other.
They are literally all unknowns. I am not the one pretending to claim High Elves are close to blood Elves at this point.
If you’re backing off your prior statements, that is all the same to me.
Visibility and lore are not the same. Again, the same sort of dishonest claim you’ve given at various points in this conversation.
I’m honestly amazed that Vulpera actually got as much traction as they have.
(Commentary): If the sources have been removed, and the pages not updated, I do not consider that dishonesty on my part, and would appreciate a less accusatory tone.
(Observation): So we both agree the game suffers bad writing, we’re just disagreeing on points of order.
(Observation): “Many,” is subjective. Certainly there seem to be many more than, say, the Void Elves.
(Commentary): If you took what I stated as a hypothetical to be fact, then I do not know what to tell you other than that we’ve both been arguing in vain for the last few hours. My point has been we have no idea what the numbers of High Elves are outside of Quel’Thalas, that the writers could say there are 5 left, or 5,000, or 5,000,000.
(Commentary): Indeed, the game world is not an accurate representation of Lore. Cities, lands, etc… are all far larger than what we see, and populations are as well. What we do see is essentially scaled for the purposes of gameplay.
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I apologize.
For sure.
I get really divided on this point. As far as I feel, yes, it doesn’t feel like Void Elves should be more than High Elves. At the same time we have Ion’s stuff about saying High Elves aren’t enough for a race then we got Void Elves right after.
We have no real idea about the populations or their regard to each other, that is my main feeling on the matter.
I do think the plausibility of how they relate is one thing, but I’m fine abstaining from that claim in-so-far as I accept I don’t have actual backing.
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(Observation): Ion’s statement seemed to revolve more around the fact that High Elves are too similar to Blood Elves visually to have made for an Allied Race appropriate for addition in Battle for Azeroth, specifically because of the faction conflict. His commentary on population seemed to aim more towards them not having a single strong settlement for a culture to develop around.
(Commentary): Personally I think he was trying to justify the inclusion of Void Elves over High Elves. Not something easy to do. Any reason to not add High Elves went out the window with Void Elves. It cannot be easy in his position to hear, over and over, that players wanted something other than what was added. It’s a constant reminder of a failure to listen to the players. That said, turning around and going, “Hey, we hear you, Void Elves we’re a mistake, we’re sorry,” would be dumb, because it would just tick off players who actually like Void Elves.
(Commentary): I’ve stated my position on that whole affair before, but I’ll summarize it here. Either add High Elves and be done with it, or add Half-Elves and change 95% of High Elf NPCs in game to Half-Elves. Then explain they were always intended to be Half-Elves, but used the High Elf model since there wasn’t one specifically for Half-Elves, similar to what they do with Arator. At least that way they can stick to their guns about the High Elf population being too small to support a playable race.
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if the island expeditions are enough to a judge a race, then tyrande was being entirely reasonable and justified when accusing the nightborne of being the same azsharas ilk, as i think the nightborne shout things like “lowborne scum!” to the alliance.
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I think it’s best (for all sides concerned) to consider the opposing faction’s races in island expeditions to be caricatures for the lulz, rather than a super serious lore statement.
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