M+ Needs Modernized

One of the raiding guilds on my server ran with a comp of 12 tanks, 12 healers, and 16 DPS in vanilla. So while I’ll take your word that there were enrage timers, they couldn’t have been anything close to aggressive.

I thought Vaelstrasz’s enrage of giving the raid a super power buff that guaranteed to kill the person was pretty good, at least for the time.

What’s funny is mega dungeons, especially their hard modes, kind of align with the “5 man raid” style of content yet their participation is always fairly low.

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There have been enrages (both hard enrage one-shots and soft enrage infinitely scaling damage pulses) in pretty much every raid. Including the current one, the raids from DF, and the raids before it.

I never said they weren’t.

You obviously didnt read my post properly.

High/push keys not depleting would be cool, as well as a way of targetting which dungeon you wanna prog.

If a group just wants to catapult their bodies at a +17 siege until one of the two break then they should be able to do that. :dracthyr_blob_dance_animated:

To say that enrage timers haven’t been a problem as a response to someone saying that raid bosses are timed is like dismissing the fact that they exist when they very much still exist. If a group doesn’t have the damage to kill a boss fast enough, they will never kill it because of that.

Mythic plus is different because even though it does have a timer, that timer is not like an enrage timer, you can miss the timer and still complete it for a partial reward. In raid, each individual boss is timed and some of them just kill you and reset if you aren’t fast enough.

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Even pug groups that have godawful damage are rarely hitting enrage timers.

The last boss i can think of where an enrage timer was an issue was probably Covenn of Shivarra.

Fyrakk? Nexus Princess?

The UI doesn’t show anything. It doesn’t even display a Rupture tracker or inform you the a DoT has fallen off??? Hello? How are people supposed to track DoTs? Just memorize everything?

No, of course they design for addons. We’d be screwed without Weak Auras.

Heroic or mythic?

Because if mythic I’d say most of them, and all of the later ones. They might not be a pressing mechanic while the fight is being executed properly but they do dictate a role composition, as well as cause mistakes that result in premature deaths to ultimately result in a wipe.

One such example of a fight that mistakenly didn’t have an enrage timer was Mythic Anduin, and as a result the world first kill ends with roughly 3 minutes of 5~ and then 2 players grinding down the fight as the mechanic difficulty scaled down significantly with less players alive.

An enrage timer was subsequently added to the encounter.

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UI, visual/audio cues, sure.

what sort of black magic do you think addons are doing for class balance and mechanics? lmao

you want to be challenged but don’t want that challenge to be challenging? got it

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Raids have timers the fight will end at a certain point no matter what soo it is timed.

Btw removing the timer dosent fix anything, it even makes a more disgusting meta. Along with rewarding essentially degen play of waiting for cds every pack.
It would be incredibly unskillful garbage.

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Nexus princess has a ramping damage enrage. Brood twister and Sikran have limited platform space where you have to kill the boss before you run out of it while one is for how much time you have before space runs out the other can be mitigated by making the best of the space you have to buy more time. Queen also has a few DPS checks with ramping damage to the transmission and adds that will simply wipe the group if you don’t handle them fast enough.

Dragonflight had a ramping damage and timed safe space loss on Terros, DPS check phases on Rasz, Tindral, and Fyrakk. Hard enrages on Fyrakk. Smolderon had a ramping damage enrage. Mythic Dathea had a soft enrage from the debuffs going out but limited means to cleanse them ramping infinitely until dead. Kurog was similar in that he we’ll just do more and more damage until he died.

Then go back to Shadowlands and you got Anduin getting an enrage timer and Sylvanas having an enrage from running out of safe platforms.

That’s just a few from recent memory.

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Mythic+ started 8 years ago.

M0 doesn’t have a timer.

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I agree m+ needs to be modernized but I disagree with the how. I believe the problem is how much you’re punished for not timing a key especially with the new 15 sec death penalty on higher keys.

A lot harder to get carried in 5 man content :slight_smile:

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Checks notes on every dungeon run over the last 7 years…about 80% with a small margin of error.

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Dungeons are inherently simpler than Raids. You have a lot fewer design options when the group is only 5 people, only 1 tank and 1 healer, and you can’t assume any specific class is present.

Raid Difficulty comes from mechanics / coordination between group members.

Dungeon Difficulty comes from scaling damage/health and a failstate (the timer).

I don’t think that’s problematic.

Dungeons are not complex enough and for the most part cannot be complex enough for “sit and wait for Hero / CDs for this pull so we can power through” to not invalidate any supposed difficulty of a Dungeon without the timer (this is also the reason solely measuring deaths doesn’t work).

Even if it’s not Hero (by way of limiting it to 3 uses per dungeon or something), letting everyone sit to recharge their 2-5 minute CDs is a huge boost to success rates, and the timer largely prevents it.

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To some degree.

Both high keys and mythic raids have carry sales though.

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Acrually kind of true the first mob pull after the first boss in Nerub-ar Place. Actually most of the trash between 1st and 2nd boss requires more intense healing and is actually more lethal than the first boss.