I appreciate your response but it is actually incorrect because a player’s true BiS comes from the OP trinkets, weapons and very rare drops in the raid.
This is why raid loot needs to be separated from mythic plus loot
You should probably bow out of this conversation then.
Outside of usually 2-3 bosses, I’d say the difficulty of raids is pretty similar to 20 keys.
It’s also infinitely repeatable, thus meaning it has to have some form of limitation somewhere. Mythic raid has the best gear because you can only kill the boss once a week and you’re locked to a specific lockout, so unless you want a cap on m+ runs you can do, I don’t see it changing any time soon.
Incentives for players to make the time and logistical leap to do raids.
Would make the game worse in every aspect.
The problem comes down to the progression system baked into each mode. Raid is balanced around the idea that by the time you kill boss X, you have the gear required to kill boss X + 1. Additionally, by the time you are killing bosses around the half way point on difficulty Y, you are usually ready to kill the early bosses on difficulty Y + 1. And the highest level raid difficulty is tuned around it taking most guilds more than a month to fully progress. For at least the first several months of an season, there is always another boss you can progress where every pull can prove helpful toward scoring a kill. Except for the players that walk into a normal raid with barely enough gear to survive the first boss, gear will practically never be the limiting factor in your ability to make meaningful progress on a raid boss.
M+ is built around being a one-and-done affair. If you don’t have the gear to complete the next level, there’s little point to even firing up a key at that level because what you might learn isn’t going to be very transferrable when you have the gear for that level in the future. And any time spent on parts of the key that you were geared for is just a mindless chore before the part you won’t be able to get past.
If M+ gear becomes locked the way raid rewards are, that’s going to make M+ basically a 4-hour per week affair and then you’re done. By the end of the season when gear isn’t the limiting factor this won’t be a problem, but early in the season that is going to be terrible. Being in a position where there isn’t much of a point to working on a character after the 4-hours it takes to do a full cycle of M+ for the first few months of a season wouldn’t be a positive for the game.
So let’s remove the loot lockout from mythic raid.
But even setting this aside, mythic raiders get to double-dip here, which is part of the problem. M+ gets 1 myth track item per week total from vault with no drops, frequently misses out on BIS items that are exclusive to raid, and has to prioritize tier pieces early because that also has to come from vault/catalyst. M+ definitely has the quantity advantage in terms of amount of viable loot choices; but there are two or three specific areas where raid has the advantage for quality as well that encompasses both raid and M+.
Having incentives to do content X is fine. Requiring incentives for content X being specifically better than the incentives for content Y for fear players might prefer content Y over content X is a big red flag. M+ gets blamed a lot for the failings of raid, but frankly many of the problems with raid have to do with raid itself. I do agree that mythic raid should have reward advantages over where M+ rewards currently stop because the difficulty is very skewed toward raid at that point. But suggesting that raid should have better rewards because otherwise too many people might choose to raid when left to their own devices is absolutely ridiculous. We should be making it so that players would choose raid when given the option of how to spend their free time, not make them feel like they don’t have a choice if they want to achieve their M+ goals.
Deterring players to stop playing m+ is not what I’d call an incentive. If raiding is in a bad state in which it cannot stand up on its own, then they need to rework its systems, not make other things worse to equalize it.
You’d just have two problems instead of none.
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Curious if you’re upset delves stop at heroic item level in the vault instead of going to mythic item level.
Doesn’t seem very fair to me that it’s cap is lower?
I wouldn’t trust AI to be compatriots in anything harder than a heroic dungeon. Technical limitations of delves in of itself.
You’re saying they aren’t/wont be difficult enough to merit such a high reward?
No?
You’re fishing for an implied answer that does not exist.
You already know AI itself is the issue. It’s a technical issue.
Also please don’t put words into my mouth I never spoke.
If delves could actually be scalable without something breaking then sure bump up its hardness and reward all the way.
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You do know delves scale to 5 people right?
I’m asking why you think delves should not give better gear and you gave some weird answer about AI that doesn’t really have anything to do with it.
Actually in your edit I guess you did say that it’s not hard enough to be worth better rewards.
It infinitely scales so of course it can be harder. And even if you wanna take into account the gear cap, well I’m still not ready to say the first 2 bosses of mythic raid is harder than m+10. It is harder to get in though.
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Not a shock…
It’s weird how this team makes a insanely loved and liked s3 that keep people playing and retention, then shoots themselves in the foot with these changes and putting in some of the worst dungeons ever, Siege of Boralus and whatever nonsense they think dawnbreaker is
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Argorwal:
Why do you keep re-iterating something I did not say?
Are you trying to get a reaction out of me?
Also evaded the answer I gave you and misinterpreted it somehow.
Easy content has more people playing.
Kind of the definition of easy content.
I bet if max rewards came from heroic dungeons and LFR and anything harder was removed their participation would skyrocket!
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and then they did the key squish and we saw what happened in the 1st couple of weeks on these forums lol
<------------------------------------------------------- Biiiiiiiiig cat streeeeeeetchessss 
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People crying on the forums?
Gee what a shock, never seen that before lol.
Also I don’t see how that has anything to do with the obvious that easier content, basically by definition, will have more people doing it, because it’s easier…
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Different types of difficulty.
On an individual level M+ is harder. More dodging, interrupting, and defensive CD usage in an equal amount of time. More bosses and pulls you have to learn.
Raiding is harder because you need to get and coordinate 19 other people competent enough to do all that and not make mistakes for 2+ hours. Plus you need a good raid leader, not just 4 people for 30 minutes.
For competent and experienced players, M+ is much more accessible than mythic raiding, not harder.
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Just so we’re on the same page,
The idea is to have push content players be indistinguishable from casuals so far as gear. This way everyone is going for the same gear, doing the same content.
Blizz has been tightening the knobs on this philosophy over DF moreso than ever.
Hence the tank changes that were announced a month before TWW drop- if you take away all these little things great tanks can utilize which casual tanks aren’t really, you’re keeping the gap small.
This is why as a good tank, I’m grouped with dps who do lower dps than me. We’re all doing the same content with the same gear thanks to changes like the hardest content now gives 1/6 Myth instead of 2/6.
Same with remop, everyone is doing the same content regardless of skill.
Oh, I thought we were talking about the hardest content. My bad.