I haven’t done so.
Saying that M+ is not actually overwhelmingly toxic isn’t saying that toxicity doesn’t happen; every game and every mode has toxic players and toxic interactions that occur.
I am simply saying that many players overemphasize and exaggerate the toxicity of M+, and most of these players have very little to no engagement with it.
I wholeheartedly disagree. I can watch someone do a mythic raid boss, but that in no way comes close to actually understanding what the experience is like.
Sure. But I’m also not going to pretend, or cede, that M+ is this toxic hellscape, and I do not have to accept or agree with the notion that the M+ system had actually created or contributed to toxic aspects of the community or playerbase.
I like M+. I am biased in that sense, yes. But that doesn’t make it true that M+ has had negative effects on the game.
Sure, but this thread is both calling for the removal of the system and claiming that the system is killing WoW.
I’m also not sure what about my posts hasn’t been calm.
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Dude, TBC killed that sort of dungeon design.
TBC gets a pass because they gave us 10-man raiding as a consolation, and still had a good amount of ‘difficult’ 5-man content as well, with the Tempest Keep dungeons and Magister’s Terrace after.
Zul’aman was strictly a 10-man, and a lot of fun.
Wrath also had the ICC 5-man dungeons that led up into the raid. They were reasonably difficult.
It was a good replacement. 10-man raiding doesn’t exist today.
Karazhan is still one of the best raids of all time, Ulduar 10 and ICC 10 behind those, imo.
At some point we stopped getting 10-mans, after MoP.
And coincidentally, MoP was one of the last expansions that was also received well, largely due to the classes and how they played and were still unique from one another.
We get like one mega-dungeon an expansion now, which is split into two smaller pieces.
Also, the amount of new dungeons we get every expansion has been getting smaller.
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Again, this is your anecdotal experience with the system. There are threads and posters complaining about the toxic nature of M+ on these forums every day. To pretend this isn’t an issue is just being disingenuous.
You’re letting your bias for M+ cloud your viewpoint on this big time, which is fine, I get that you like it, but stop badgering people for voicing their concerns with the system.
I’m not trying to mean here, but a lot of your comments just come off as dismissive and elitist.
Technically, all the raids can be 10 manned now, but I get what you’re saying, none of the raids are designed as 10 man from the ground up, just scaled down to be 10 man.
The old 10 man dungeons were pretty unique.
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I’m not denying that players have negative interactions with M+.
I’m not sure why their personal experience outweighs mine, though?
I do genuinely think that many players need to stop letting a handful of negative experiences define their relationship with the system, yes.
It isn’t just the toxicity though, a lot of people don’t like speed running content, especially in a MMORPG that was created to be a virtual fantasy world.
Edit: Competitive players that like speed running dungeons for example, are really in a minority when you consider the overall MMO player base.
Yeah, but no one’s forcing players to do it.
That’s, like, fine. But so what? What does that have to do with anything?
No, but the game really is pushing players into this content these days. Plus, the M+ speed run mindset has seeped into regular dungeons.
I actually don’t think this is very much accurate. Or at least not as much as you think.
Most games I’ve played over the many many bloody years I’ve played MMOs, one thing that has always been consistent was efficiency. Which when you get down to it, was always about speedrunning.
I will say the most memorable time I had many years ago I think it was either late WotLK or early Cataclysm, was on a horde paladin and we did all of Blackrock Depths, from top to bottom in a pug group. Took 5 hours, and was glorious. It was also only ever done one time and I played since early TBC. Because every other time, people only ever did as much as required to get the specific reward needed to continue progressing, and never any further.
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I think it’s hard to substantiate the argument that it’s really the timer’s fault that people are trying to run dungeons quickly. It certainly exists in the Classic world, too; and seems prevalent in most MMOs I’ve played, even those that don’t have timed dungeons.
I just don’t buy the whole idea of “M+ is timed. Players want to do even non-timed dungeons quickly. Ergo, M+ is responsible.”
Perhaps because it’s popular?
SWTOR, ESO, FFXIV — I don’t really know any MMO with this style of dungeon content where it isn’t the norm (and hasn’t always been).
Shadowlands had amazing M+ system. You grind dungeons , get currency, upgrade gear to certain lvl, get rating to pass the ilvl upgrade barrier and do it again.
Now I don’t even bother with this stupid currency system. 3 types of currency to upgrade 8 times, and still you have to replace that piece of gear
Which is completely healthy for a video game. This idea that content has to have infinite replayability is just a crazy idea for a RPG.
Replayability for older dungeons came in the form of people playing alts, or people farming a particular piece of gear, but they would eventually just finish the content. M+ doesn’t let you finish content, you’re playing the same dungeon, for the same gear for years.
The rotation is helping somewhat, but still playing the same old dungeons.
If M+ is as popular as people say it is, Blizzard should be pumping out new dungeons with every patch. They do it with raids, why not include dungeons in the mix?
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Though there are multiple currencies now, the DF system is an improvement over SL in pretty much every other way.
Explicitly because of the seasonal rotation. Introducing new dungeons upsets the flow - M+ is generally built around mastering set dungeons and optimizing the route.
If there’s a new dungeon every patch, it’s kind of working against the point.
Many people say that , but for some reason I can’t see this. Maybe I don’t understand it.
For me it was easier to get valor and upgrade your gear. Now you collections fragments to create crests, fragments drop from dungeons and raids as far as I am aware.
Then as far as I know mythic upgrades are split in different levels. You can upgrade gear 8x then you have to do higher keys , then upgrade that new gear you reach another m+milestone, and then you can upgrade to max ilvl.
For me that’s just excuse to keep people subbed and that one item couldn’t be upgraded 15 times like it was in SL, which in my opinion was much better. You get your BiS trinket? You’re done for that season. Now you play for fun.
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Mythic+ is amazing.
It keeps dungeons relevant and allows for a smaller form of consistent content with friends that isn’t raiding, while still tied to player progression. The idea the game would be better off with a raid or die mentality, just to shoehorn in supposedly new dungeons that would be obsolete without the mythic plus system 2 weeks after launch of an expansion sounds more like a non-solution. Nobody wants to go back to the old days, not even the classic fanboys which is why they keep demanding new iterations of their “classic” experience. Classic Hardcore, Classic Seasons, BC Classic, WOTLK Classic, now you got some even desiring Cata Classic. Sure sure, game was better “back then” though. If “back then” could ever actually be defined lol. Mythic Plus is one of the main things WoW got right.
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I don’t see how new dungeons would be bad here? You mastered the content, so now you just want new seasons of the content you already mastered? I honesty don’t get the M+ crowd.
Blizzard is laughing all the way to bank with you guys.
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Now that sure seems like the sort of dismissive comments you accused me of making! 
My point is that the seasonal change-up is pretty good. It gives a long amount of time to master current dungeons (as long as a raid tier), without overwhelming.
The fun of M+ is trying to push higher and higher, to see how far you can get. It’s about mastering the specific dungeons in the season.
And that’s kind of neutered if you hardly have any time to play and improve the dungeons.