btw a lot of people say that m+ its a challenge so they love it… but they want to keep the freaking ilvl scaling to make it easier. you should just keep normal mythic dungeons ilvl so you guys can enjoy the great challenge, right?
plenty of us are. we have friends and we enjoy playing with them.
i never did either of those things.
3 Likes
M+ has rendered Raiding irrelevant and I think that’s a big problem too.
2 Likes
I completely agree.
But you failed to mention another thing. Since the implementation of M+, have you noticed any change in the community? Have you noticed that the game is becoming more and more of a fast-paced highly competitive video game, and is almost comparable to that of a battle royale game or FPS? I loved the community back in BC, and Wrath. The game was a true MMORPG. Nothing more, and nothing less. It had every feature necessary to hold it above all other RPGs on the market. And while WoW is still the best of all of them… The new PvP, and PvE “game modes” like M+, is bringing a new general attitude from players. People are not in it for the long haul now. They want everything done as quickly and efficiently as possible, and if things don’t go their way, they leave. It is becoming a toxic environment in a game that is supposed to bring people together, and give us challenges to make memories with. I don’t feel any kind of reward from getting AOTC, or completing a new highest keystone, I really don’t. It is baffling how much the community has changed since M+ first released. And I am fully on board with removing M+ altogether.
2 Likes
The fact that a repetitive gear treadmill of limited content is keeping WoW alive says a lot about the current health of the game.
1 Like
it’s more that people play for gear, and anything that doesn’t reward power, doesn’t exist.
2 Likes
WoW, is going down the same path as Overwatch, the people that keep defending these competitive game modes don’t realize their game is dying.
Putting competitive ranked ladders in for PVE dungeons is like one of the most silly additions I’ve seen put into an MMO.
People keep saying it saved the game, but I think it was just an attempt by Blizzard to mask the lack of content.
2 Likes
I don’t blame M+ for the community changing. It’s just how the culture in our world is in general. It’s like this in gaming abroad. In the 90’s and early 2000’s, there was somewhat of a less toxic gaming community. But that group of people (I am part of that group) grew up and now the younger individuals are filling in and there is a different culture nowadays.
Everyone is playing for gear, this is how it has always been.
I disagree here, people haven’t changed that much. I play other MMOs and this competitive additude that has infected WoW is way less prevalent in the other big MMOs.
M+ killed long dungeons like BRD I’ll never forgive them for that.
Everything is designed around M+ now, even all megadungeons we got will inevitably be split into two.
Pretty much all dungeons now are “bite-sized” and I hate it.
Enjoyed PvE much, much more when we had LONG 5-mans and 10-man raids.
I still don’t understand why they got rid of these- they hit a sweet spot for me.
M+ is too sweaty to be fun.
There is no discovery, only routine and getting upset and people that don’t know it. No wonder it’s dying.
1 Like
I see it in almost any game that has any sort of competitive nature to it. That’s just how it goes. WoW became an ESPORTS game and therefore the community evolved.
I agree, I see it in the competitive games as well, but why did this have to be a thing in WoW?
I think the developers were so desperate to find content that had some kid of infinite replayability in order to pad those MAUs as well as fill the mandate from the parent company to shoehorn e-sports into all their games.
Every single Blizzard game is suffering from these design mandates. The push to make OW into an e-sport killed that game, and the same is happening to WoW.
HoTs was a great MOBA that was pretty much canned because they couldn’t get traction with it as an e-sport. Casual players loved HoTs!!!
2 Likes
Who knows the real reason, but in my opinion it isn’t just Blizzard trying to save face. I genuinely think alot of this is due to a modern culture. Blizzard employees have come and gone, and over the years they adjust their vision to model other companies. They’re a business and they are going to incorporate strategies that other companies use as well.
That’s why you keep hearing people say “MMO’s are dying” because… well… in some ways it’s true. It’s not that WoW is dying. That style of gaming that I, and others, grew up playing is falling out. Nowadays it’s all fast paced and more about competition, less about long term exploration and interacting with players. The mindset that seems to prominent in the gaming community today is more elitist. It really is sad, but that’s where its at in my mind.
I disagree with this, we have more MMOs on the market now than at any point in the history of gaming. All the big MMOs are thriving and making money, including WoW.
There are countless smaller MMOs like Albion Online and Eve that are still thriving.
There are several big MMOs in the development pipeline. We are in the golden days of MMO gaming.
I mainly see this “MMOs are dying” from WoW only players, basically people that only play WoW or WoW was their only MMO.
They look at the decline of WoW and basically use this as a gauge for all MMO gaming. The truth is, there are just way more MMOs available now, and retail WoW isn’t that good, old and in decline now. MMO gamers are spread out over a lot of different games now.
If MMOs were dying, Riot wouldn’t be investing in making one. You wouldn’t have Korean developers pumping out MMO after MMO if this was the case.
3 Likes
Sure, I can see that. My question then would be how are those MMO’s in comparison to what WoW used to be in what others would label as “the golden days”.
Also, the root of what I was getting at was the community aspect. Within the last 5-10 years, I feel like (I actually point to League of Legends for this) the gaming community has a whole has just become more toxic, elitist and filled with the min-max mindset. It has become like a plague that is spreading, which of course has infected WoW as you said before.
But where I was originally disagreeing with you was saying WoW is the issue (assuming I perceived what you meant correctly) and essentially suggesting that other games are fine/well off compared to WoW.
Previously: I played in ignorance.
Now? much more aware.
Why does that matter? You keep thinking that MMOs need 10 million players to be successful. WoW having 12 million subs was an anomaly created by a lack of competition in the mid 2000s. The MMO population is just spread out among more games now.
Because the developers designed games to be this way. I blame it on the live-service games model that every online game employs now.
What other MMOs do you play? I play all the other big MMOs through the out year along with Lord of the Rings Online, and I don’t see the level of competitive toxic behavior that I see in WoW.
To say that M+/Mythic raiding isn’t a direct cause of this is just ignoring the 800lb gorilla in the room.
I think these are just branches to the tree, my friend. Where I feel like it all started to spiral out of control was the MoP era when twitch became super popular and all of the top PVPers in WoW were all the rage. Everything became a compeition more then ever around that time, which is also when ESPORTS starting blowing up as well (with League of Legends especially).
Mythic plus is just a product of those events and yeah it contributes to that toxic, elitist, competitive mentality. I won’t disagree with you on that.
Well, I’ve played FF14, ESO, New World and Lost Ark. I’ll admit I probably don’t explore nearly as much MMOs, but those games are not toxic free by any means.
To re-iterate my point, I don’t like the idea of blaming WoW in general and act like it’s the only MMO out there that has a toxic community (speaking in general, not quoting you). WoW has just become more toxic, in my eyes, because of esports in general. Blizzard has indeed catered to that crowd and has evolved their game(s) to fit that mold. Why? I think it’s a marketing thing for the reasons I’ve already explained. Esports is popular and that’s what a lot of people seem to be into. So of course the community is going to evolve.
I’m not saying that the other MMOs don’t have toxicity. I’m just pointing out that WoW’s end game loop design breeds toxicity way more than any other MMO I have played outside the PVP focused games like Eve and Albion. PVP MMOs are pretty bad at times, although I love Albion Online a ton, and I think that game has an amazing community even though it is full loot PVP MMO.
Edit: I played the game since launch, and I didn’t see this issue really crop up until mid Legion.
WoW raiding always had some elements of this competitivness, but every aspect of the end game just feels like it is infested with toxic players now.
I would say this attitude has always cropped up in Wrath Classic as well.