M+ is killing WoW

Community General Discussion
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Two different player bases.

LFR was for the super casual who will never join a raid, would never see the content. It was added as a way for them to complete their quest lines and at least see a very basic version of it.

M+ was created for players of all levels (though realistically it’s probably the players just above super casual all the way to the very top), as they can all join at some level and be successful (whether it’s a +2 for the casual player or a +25 for the CE player)

Mythic Dungeons you left out (ignoring the new Mega Dungeon, that’s a different beast), because they’re DEAD like you said. Heck even Heroic was dead until they added that new quest reward for doing Heroic Dungeons. As let’s be honest, you can see the dungeon on Normal (see super-casual above), and the rewards for Heroic aren’t worth it when you can just as easily get into a M+ (especially if it’s an alt and you can just ask for a +2 key and list it and get carried). Heck I rarely even see someone looking for a World Tour anymore.

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Ah yes, the classic profile shaming tactic, to discredit the poster. You guys really need to get better arguments.

I never understood this mentality that me complaining on these forums is somehow going to translate into Blizzard removing M+.

Nothing I say or do is going to have any effect on what Blizzard does in the game.

People like yourself that attack people levying criticism just sound like you’re insecure in your decision to play the game. If you need to spend time on these forums attacking people for making criticisms, then are you really having fun in the game?

The vast majority of players that enjoy games, don’t spend time being an apologist on the respective gaming forums.

Blizzard created this problem, they started showering players with gear so fast, that heroic dungeons were obsolete in a few weeks. People forget TBC heroics, people ran those for a long time to gear up for raids.

I don’t get why people don’t treat dungeons like the rest of the disposable content that is in the game? Raids become obsolete, leveling zones become obsolete, that is the point of a RPG, to progress through the content, not run the same thing over and over for small ilevel increments.

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WOW sucks, no one can possibly find this game fun. Should be more like Call of Duty. - FPS player.

Why should this player’s opinion be worth listening to?

Justify that.

M+ is lazy content from a dev time standpoint, but it’s fun and engaging.

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187

Fun for people that like it.

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Well yes, just like everything in gaming?

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189

I have to admit, that is something I really like about FFXIV’s crafting.

You need iron swords? Better get iron

You want steel swords? Better get iron and charcoal

You want mythrilsteel swords? Better get some mythril and iron and charcoal

You want Divine Omnipotent Rose Gold Hopesteel swords?

Better get the essence of gods, a collapsed cosmos, the last wish of a dying child… and some iron, copper, and gold

A lot of the metals in that game are made as alloys of other metals from low level zones as well as new mats rather than “screw it, here’s a brand new never before seen metal, it works just fine in its unalloyed form because it’s just that good compared to everything else ever.”

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I just think it is funny that so many people that spend an inordinate amount of time on these forums think M+ is universally loved among the player base.

When you challenge this, they just show Raiderio stats trying to pass that data off means to prove it is popular.

All they see is millions of keys per season being run, so it must be popular. None of them actually break down the math though, those figures could be reach by just couple hundred thousand players participating over the course of several months.

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I agree they did create the problem, but not the way you exactly describe. Heroics kind of went Hand in Hand with LFR for the Super Casual player (they could queue for it) as it was the top Gear they could get. But when Blizzard added Gear Catch Up systems like Forbidden Reach, that became the new end game for the super casual player and Heroics DIED. Example for me, I hit 70, send my new alt a full set of 385 Primalist Gear and buy a few odds/ends and shelf it as it’s near 385 iLvL and can do whatever I want from there (though I do wish the tokens to upgrade from 385 to 395 were BoA, I have 100’s on alts)

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Torghast was like universally hated. I don’t get the vibe from m+.

And cause it doesn’t really take dev time, what else would you want to add?

It’s not like we haven’t sacrificed raid tiers and dungeons for time rifts, upcoming dream surges, zaralek caverns etc.

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Yeah, that make sense. Blizzard kind of killed the normal dungeon scene over the years by poor design.

That is why they had to make M+. People love to say that dungeons were dead in 2 weeks here, but that was not the case for the vast majority of players. Again, the people posting on these forums are hardcore players, they just can’t see the big picture, they only see things from their perspective.

I understand why people like M+, but I don’t think a lot of people get the horrible impact it has had on the game. WoW was always notorious for having a some what toxic community, but outside these forums, the current game has even a worse reputation than it did.

Trying to shoehorn an e-sport into the game has made WoW just unbearable for so many long time players.

This is why Classic is still going strong. People keep saying it is dying, but every time I log in over there, the game is packed, both Wrath and Vanilla versions.

I see this statement parroted a lot here, but don’t you think it is kind of sad that people have just accepted that spamming 8 dungeons over and over again for their end game? The other content you mentioned kind of suffers from the same issues M+ does.

The developers are trying to create these content loops that can be run for a long time, instead of actually making good content. You can just feel the corporate stink all over the game these days. Everything exists now to just pad MAUs. A lot of the content feels like this to me now.

I think people are wising up to this design, though. I’ve lost more WoW friends in SL and DF combined than I did in the last 10 years of the game. BFA through DF, I have been for 6 guild collapses. I keep having to find new guilds because people just stop logging in.

I think retail WoW is really starting to bleed players like crazy, not just because of M+, there are a ton of factors at play that due to just terrible MMO design.

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Normal dungeons were just chores people did for badges once a day. Not cause they were fun.

This is why Classic is still going strong. People keep saying it is dying, but every time I log in over there, the game is packed, both Wrath and Vanilla versions.

I think this has more to do with sharding, and people wanting to be king of irrelevance.

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Yeah, it’s such an engaging system that a huge amount of people just subscribe to the very common botting software that automates it.

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You could say the same about M+. A lot of people just run it for the vault.

People actually enjoy Classic dude.

Ah, you’re showing your true colors here. Retail achievements, scores and ladder ranks don’t mean anything either.

This elitist mindset here is why I hate the modern game, and M+

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But I think it’s genuinely fun?

Like, I enjoy being able to continuously attempt challenging content and having it scale with me.

I enjoy that it’s easy to get into — it’s a time commitment of 45 minutes, an hour at most of things are going wrong.

It’s a really convenient and fun system for me to have content that’s at my level, that’s challenging, that has very noticeable growth based on skill.

I understand your cynical interpretation, but I strongly disagree that it is either the only or the truest perspective on Mythic Plus, its function, or why it’s appealing.

Like. Mythic + is the most fun I have in any game period. It is, to me, every thing I like about the MMO in a microcosm - in a bite-sized chunk. And the idea that you suggest, that most people don’t really enjoy it or that people don’t “actually” enjoy the game (versus Classic) is nonsense.

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Classic Dragonflight when it comes out in seven years will have a thriving community for everyone that missed out on something.

Classic Shadowlands will have a thriving community for everyone that failed to get CE on the Jailer and wants another chance to do so.

Like people who haven’t done Naxx back in the day, think doing it now is the same thing.

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I doubt these expansions will a release again.

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Willing to bet Classic Cataclysm comes out at some point.

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You mean on day 1 of release?

Dungeons were never some popular end game thing before m+. They were something you did for a few weeks after hitting max level, then never touched again.

Pot, meet kettle.

You can still do trivial dungeons if thats what you enjoy doing.

This is mostly self inflicted. The community is not nearly as toxic as a few forum goers would like to suggest. Does it have its moments? Sure. But man, I dont even remember the last time someone was “toxic” with me in a group.

Except you can avoid it and still do your trivial dungeons like before.

You combing servers with sharding, etc, and it will always feel full. Just like retail.

Compared to not touching dungeons at all for the end game?

MAUs were always important. They tried making content loops from day 1.

I think you are wrong.

I also think WoW Vanilla had some of the worst MMO design I have ever seen. But hey, some people like it and good for them.

I dont feel the need to constantly tell them I feel its bad design, though.

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I think this will happen, and MoP too

Edit: I got so many of the apologists on ignore. I see I’m getting replies, but I have no idea what they’re saying lol. These forums are so much better if you put these posters on ignore :slight_smile:

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it’s people wanting to relive the past, and experience the feeling that they can finally be king (except the world has moved on.)

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