So classes should never be balanced, and a demon hunter should be able to single-handedly handle all the interrupts and stops?
If you played through that, you’d know why it was absurd.
Yea it was absurd because other tanks had different tools that were taken away that were comparable to DHs if not better.
BrM used to have disorient on breath of fire and RoP used to AoE disarm and silence. Prot’s Avenger’s Shield silence bounce got nerfed. DK used to just be able to straight up steal bs spell casts. I still remember CM Bloodmaul Slagmines final room would just be Dark Sim the entire room to death including the boss. Prot war used to have Mass Spell Reflection. I still remember warriors memeing on Elisande and making the boss do a fair amount of the work on the boss fight.
I didn’t even know this was tracked… Im not sure if I wanna see mine.
I waste time at work on here…
I just consider this as class/spec tuning, not really a tool.
In terms of resetting spell cds? This is one thing I think they should revert.
This one needed to be nerf’d. Silencing every mob it bounces to is too much.
Except this ideology only applies to title pushers. The only thing the average and above-average player needs to worry about is Lust/BR and the occasional Soothe.
Call it what you want. This not only hit everyone across the board, but it did so unevenly and it was never addressed.
Not just in terms of resetting spell cds. All their duration in PvE got hit.
Hard disagree because before everyone else’s crap got neutered, this had competition but the competition got deleted.
I agree that it truly only applies to title pushers, but it leaks down to the rest of the playerbase whether we like it not. And you can see the difference in gameplay when class X gets brought average or not.
I can’t take you seriously if you are actually arguing that Avenger’s Shield Silencing 5 different targets per cast wasn’t OP. There was no competition and even post-nerf there still isn’t.
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Apparently Blizz disagreed because they nerfed DH sigils after. Also BrM used to have disorient on breath of fire and RoP used to AoE disarm and silence. DK used to just be able to straight up steal bs spell casts. I still remember CM Bloodmaul Slagmines final room would just be Dark Sim the entire room to death including the boss. Prot war used to have Mass Spell Reflection. I still remember warriors memeing on Elisande and making the boss do a fair amount of the work on the boss fight.
There was plenty of competition and different classes had different ways to handle things, but they were either removed or changed.
You are combining multiple forms of sigils that made it OP. Let me give you a hint, it wasn’t because of the silence one.
You are comparing Avenger’s Shield which can pretty much be spammed compared to RoP that has a much longer CD. The proper comparison would be against Divine Toll. So we would have Avenger’s Shield silencing 5 targets per cast then an additional up to 25 targets with Divine Toll.
There was no comparison or competition with interrupts. Stops and ints are not the same thing.
No, I’m comparing it to breath of fire, whose current CD may as well be non-existent. And yes MoP RoP would be a better comparison to divine toll. While Toll has a technical target cap, MoP RoP is infinite targets, but no one pulls 25+ casters anyway.
I don’t see it as a competition of interrupts. Just who’s got what to address things. Different classes had different tools that they could use in different ways. It’s why when you say
It matters very little to me because you’re splitting hairs. Fact remains, a class’ tools got nerfed for being too useful after another class’ tools got nerfed for being too useful after everyone’s stuff got nerfed several times.
Fact remains that these changes were made because they trivialized the content. You don’t see a problem with chain stopping trash solo? The difference between stops and interrupts are that stops work on abilities, not just casters. They are stronger than interrupts, except for lieutenant mobs. Especially before when they reset spell cds.
Again, can’t take you seriously if you are advocating for things like DF S3 double sigils, MoP breath, and previous versions of Avenger’s Shield.
1 button silencing 5 targets with an effective cd of less than 10 seconds is too much ontop of our actual interrupt and Divine Toll.
No one needs to keep a spread sheet of utilities to do the content. They literally just need Lust and BR for 99.9% of the population.
Well I completely agree with your theses, but I disagree on the solutions. I’d personally like to see all DMG that is meant to be healed become unavoidable. That is the only way it can be balanced. If casts need dealt with, then those casts or abilities can do something else if they go off. They can slow down, give DPS negative haste, or even outright kill regardless of defensive used, etc. This would drastically level the healing experience.
There needs to be way less incoming DMG across the board. It’s still way too spikey. Timers still mean nothing unless you can’t survive, which means survival is once again the most important thing. When you have spikey DMG and survival as king, then you have stagnant comps and metas that are twice as restrictive as a DPS meta. See Aug and disc priest who keeps coming back
No. I don’t see an issue with chain stopping trash. I enjoyed the good ole strat of stun and bung. It was a strat more classes could pull off. And no it didn’t entirely trivialize content because if the stuff you giga pulled wasn’t dead at the end of the CC chain, you had to address it.
Why are you opposed to letting classes have their tools at full strength? I get that your concerned about content being trivialized, but having a variety of classes that have different tools makes playing alts interesting. Also, let’s not overlook that Blizz can design around it. They have the code to let casts cds not reset. They could feasibly do mix packs.
I thought we addressed this already. Whatever happens at the top leaks down to everyone else.
I somewhat disagree with this because its implementation means more of the same, and it reeks of creative bankruptcy. I’d like to see mechanics where heals/dispels are what are required to complete the mechanic as opposed to just heal hard or the group dies.
Then I was right about you just wanting to trivialize content.
I can want being strong while understanding when things are over powered.
Class representation amongst the average player’s key brackets show otherwise. Yes there is going to be a lean towards the meta, but it’s not that significant.
How does my enjoyment of stun and bung mean I want to trivialize content? What we do now is basically just a weaker version of stun and bung where we have far less control than we did before. It’s just more management and coordination than before and it leans a lot more to favoring certain specs. It’s not even the fun management and coordination either.
Yea, and I can see that even if classes are strong, there are ways to design around it and keep things interesting.
My man, are we just overlooking the plague of ret paladins and how many people hopped aboard shaman?
This is the problem that you can’t seem to comprehend. You are making this about you and failing to see how it negatively impacts the game. I’m not arguing about this from an individualistic approach.
There’s 5 players in a group and it’s absurd to advocate for abilities that can single-handedly lock down packs just because it’s “fun”. It trivializes the intended design of M+ being end-game content that’s supposed to be on par with raiding.
Which is the opposite of trivial.
Like I said, representation shows otherwise. Ret isn’t even meta.
The issue is the design of M+. You seem to lean into the idea that packs have to hit tank, cast spell and be managed through resources. If M+ wants to be on par with raiding as end-game content, the design has to improve. The danger of bosses has to be more than big aoe rot. Trash packs have to improve past just hit tank and cast spell because it is easily countered.
We call out our kicks more these days as opposed to calling out our CC before. However, those aren’t the only ways trash can be designed to be managed. We can have our CC and have trash that doesn’t fold to it.
It may not be meta meta, but it’s still top 5 and three of the top 5 are still in the top 5 in the 7-9 bracket. Though, I do concede that ret declines at the top. Loosening the reins on AoE would help even things out. We haven’t even looked at nor need to look at the tank section.
I feel like we’re getting a little derailed though. I want the reins to be loosened when it comes to M+ through design changes and a return of player power. From what we’ve discussed, I understand that you are concerned (rightfully so) that it might make things too easy. I get your concern, but we can return player power while maintaining a challenge in M+ through better design.
Most of the M+ bosses don’t have rot damage and how would you improve past “just hit tank and cast spell” while in an infinitely scaling system?
No you can’t unless they super tune them up which will only drag the fights out and scale horribly.
Ret isn’t even close to meta and I showed you exactly how the meta doesn’t always trickle down. This is moving goalposts.
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Bro what? AoE damage is everywhere on bosses in M+. All of GB. 2-3/4 in NW. All of Mists (though at least with Mists it’s tame). 2-3/4 in Stonevault. 2-3/4 in Siege. 1-2/3 in Ara Kara. 3-4/4 in City of Threads. 2/3 in Dawnbreaker.
Design trash with emphasis on movement and positioning beyond just LoS. Have environmental interactions with trash. Some interactions could be the trash has be to be moved through X to actually be killable in a reasonable amount of time. Others could go make mob X shoot mob Y for Y to go down faster. You could have trash where you don’t want to hard CC because it’d make other trash stronger.
No they don’t.
Alright if we’re just gonna talk about the meta comp of fdk, aug, enh, prot pal, and disc, 3/5 of them remain very relevant in the 7-9 bracket.
Do you seriously not know the difference between AoE and rot? The Abomination during Stitchflesh is rot damage.
This is you still trying to move goal posts.
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You’re splitting hairs again. Unavoidable AoE is everywhere in M+ Bosses. We can call it by different names or terminologies, but it’s still there.
Alright. Then how are you interpretting the data? My statement is that what’s played at the top leaks down. Does the data not show that?