M+ has a Litany of Issues

And they need to be addressed going forward. I know Blizz has announced that they’ve got things in mind, but quite frankly what they’re proposing will make things better but not by much. A lot of what’s wrong with M+ can be broken down into the affixes, dungeon design, and player power/agency.

Affixes

Too many of the affixes are terrible. The only decent ones are the CC orbs, and kill the big add. All the others are bad. Tyran, Fort, and the extra death timer deduction are all lazy. Tyran and Fort are literally just add more numbers to drag things out and add nothing a higher key level doesn’t. Extra death timer is either a nothing burger or salt on the wound and also adds nothing to the key. RNG gather the orbs are terrible because RNG is terrible, and can absolutely go sideways given a boss fight (looking at you Mists of Tirna Scythe). It’s good that it’s being reworked, but I don’t hold high hopes yet. The dispel affix is terrible because it’s one more annoying thing healers have to mange, AND while most classes can handle it, it still leads to some classes getting absolutely shafted.

I’d gladly take some of the older things that Blizz got rid of like necrotic or bursting over Fort and Tyran. At least those can be played around as opposed to just bigger numbers on every enemy. Hell, I’d even take the single add CC affix because more classes can handle it than the dispel mechanic.

Dungeon Design

The way dungeons are made are also a large factor as to the state of M+. Long story short, Blizz min maxed it and made it annoying. From trash packs to boss fights, Blizz has made it a point to make things a giant pain for the players. Starting with boss fights, there are few fights that are mechanically engaging, and most of the “challenge” is sourced from bad scaling.

My favorite bosses this season are Chopper Redhook (Siege of Boralus 1st Boss) and Stitchflesh with Chopper Redhook pulling ahead for a very specific reason I’ll get into in a bit. But first, the reason why I like these bosses is because they are mechanically engaging and there is a large degree of control allotted to the players. For the most part, if things go south, it’s your fault. For Redhook, you can actively EOD the bombs on your own and you can control outgoing damage by killing the adds while it is strictly up to the players to run Redhook or the adds into bombs. For Stitchflesh if you know how to aim hooks, you can manipulate the fight to how you want it, and do really cool things. The only reason Redhook pulls ahead of Stitchflesh is because of the unavoidable DoT and AoE damage on Stitchflesh.

Unavoidable damage and especially unavoidable AoE damage have infested M+ to its core, and all because Blizz wanted to dictate how healers played. Instead of making dungeons more interesting or just letting heals dps, Blizz decided to just make them zug heal and call it engagement and a job well done. Not only does this strike me as incredibly lazy, as it is my firm belief that 80% damage taken by the party should be optional and only as a result of a true mechanics failure (more on that later), but it also restricts the kind of comps you can run. I remember fondly the days of Legion where 1 tank 4 dps was a thing, but now every comp requires a healer just to heal unavoidable bs. It is conceptually boring, and it’d be more fun if we got actual mechanics like Ansurek p1 pops or portals. And this is just the bosses. We haven’t even gotten to trash packs.

Dungeon trash has evolved. Almost every pack has a tank buster, unavoidable damage, or double cast which kinda turns into unavoidable damage, or a mix of or all of the above and sometimes more than one. Blizz has said that they’re rolling back the tank busters, but that’s the least of the issues on the list. They should have rolled back unavoidable damage/double casts because dancing around the group’s healthbars is way more healer stress than just pumping the tank.

The worst thing Blizz did when it comes to trash was mess with caster/ranged trash. For one, they basically ignore the tank. Hunter-type trash basically means unavoidable damage for the group. Caster trash presents a different issue in that every single one of them has the filler cast and the deadly cast. One person cannot cover both kicks with even the best kick in the game alone, and usually there’s more than one caster. Scaling makes it worse as both casts become deadly. And to add salt on the wound, Blizz changed caster AI so that micro cc/pseudo kicks don’t trigger the CD for a spell which means less options. At this point it’s not even a true mechanics failure as opposed to just not having the resource to manage the mechanic. More on resources later.

No dungeon captures everything I find wrong with Blizz’s dungeon design more than Grim Batol this season. Blizz just sprinkled AoE unavoidable damage on all the bosses in there. Umbriss is basically a crappier Hymdall with unavoidable AoE damage and more focus on space management. Throngus is basically a mildly different flavor of himself with unavoidable AoE damage. Dragha literally just got unavoidable damage and AoE damage tacked on. Erudax also got unavoidable damage and AoE damage tacked onto him, and his add mechanic got changed into more tank/healing pressure because of the debuff. Borderline every pack has more than one tank buster or caster or both. Trash is teeming with unavoidable damage be it AoE or DoT. The sad thing is the dungeon isn’t even hard; it just becomes tedious. There is a lot the players can do to mitigate the ick in this dungeon, but it’s all been filtered because…

Player Power/Agency

Got absolutely shafted. It has gotten sooooooo bad in this regard. First Blizz nerfed everyone’s AoE, but not equally. Then Blizz nerfed all the AoE CC. Then Blizz buffed caster AI to not CD from micro CC/pseudo-kicks leaving us with less options. Then Blizz nerfed Prot Pally’s avenger’s shield bounce silences because it was too useful after they nerfed everything else. Then Blizz nerfed DH sigils because it was too useful after they nerfed everything else. And now here we are, in this hell of a M+ meta. If I had to guess what’s next on the utility nerf chopping block, it’d be sin rogue’s AoE silence garrotes that they can spam.

All this tinkering has resulted in is a meta defined by basically an excel spreadsheet of resources from which classes got less things taken away from them by Blizz. Gone are the days of bring the player not the class. While the old strat of giga pull and stun and bung still had class favoritism, more classes could pull it off as opposed to what we have now. There were less required pieces back then. All it took was a tank made of stern stuff and dps that knew timings well. Now you need specific specs to either do 10M dps, silence everything, and/or both.

THE END

All this has culminated into a season of M+ where even Blizz admits they went a little too ham going into the design. Healers are scarce because few people want to deal with all that all the time. Tanks are clenched because everything hurts. And DPS can’t get into groups because people are sticking to meta specs. Most people aren’t happy, and things need to change with M+.

TL;DR: Blizz needs stop min maxing every little thing when they design dungeons and just let players vibe. Loosen the reins, sip on a cold drink, and let the good times flow.

Edit: Because I thought these responses were funny.

Since when did structured use of the English language instantly denote the use of AI. Are we truly at that point already? Would you have me type this post in morse code or bang rocks and sticks together for “authenticity?” Or do you prefer grunts and zugs?

Good thing there’s a TL;DR.

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Why did you use chat gpt to make a post?
like you want to call blizz lazy but then are lazy yourself and use chat gpt

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I’m about to put this post in chatgpt to summarize the post for me haha :rofl:

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Which is why it’s already being replaced.

The entire system is just lazy design.

Higher difficulty should mean it gains mechanics, not that you loose one and everything just hits x% harder.

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I agree. The biggest issue is that it rewards inflated ilvl vault loot for failing to even time it. It’s the #1 issue they need to fix - vault slots should only be rewarded for timing the dungeon and it shouldn’t be inflated ilvl.

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It’s really not that bad the season was fine. Dragonflight season 1 was way worse IMO

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The affixes weren’t the problem, they kept the dungeons fresh. This season shows more than ever that a healthy pool of rotating affixes kept m+ interesting.

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Somewhat true, it’s meant to severely punishes heavy failures, such as death. Although for keys below 12 they can just cut all key timers by 5-10 minutes instead and remove the affix.

This is handled just fine since it’s not a heal absorb, and you just need 2 dispels in the group to make it trivial. That leaves 3 spots for classes to not run a dispel, wether they can or not.

Agreed, just buff mobs and bosses in general and remove the fort/tyr, they change nothing to how you play.

It’s a good thing though, it gives healers something to heal. There’s already plenty of windows for healers to deal damage, and the community is torn between “healers should heal” which wants more outgoing damage than what we currently have, and “healers should mostly heal, but also do some damage” which are happy the way things are. One could argue we have a third group too that wants less outgoing damage, but those are mostly people playing abover their skill bracket.

Any m+ design that doesn’t promote the 1-1-3 is bad m+ design, and there’s currently 1-0-4 runs being done as high as +14 this season. No-heal comps are perfectly viable, even though they shouldn’t be.

This mostly comes of as you wanting training dummies to kill in between boss fights. Why are challenges in challenging content a bad thing?

One out of five people are not meant to solo the mechanics. It’s a group challenge, you overcome it as a group. It also promotes using more of your utility, such as stuns, blind, knock-ups etc. to deal with caster/hunter mobs. It’s challenging gameplay in challenging content.

For you to eat two casts and die of it it means that the group failed multiple mechanics (in this case, interrupts), and that is in keys beyond +10 where you definitely should have to do mechanics to complete the key.

How would a good dungeon be designed according to you? As far as I can see, you dislike everything that seems to pose a threat, or require you to do something beyond your rotation.

They just reverted the DF buffs into how it’s always been, which was a good thing considering one player could solo all the interrupts/cc in dragonflight.

These were good changes, the power these abilities held made mechanics awfully trivial.

That’s because stupid players make stupid decisions. If you’re not looking to be the best in the world, you don’t need a meta spec. If you’re not looking to do title keys, you don’t need a meta comp. You can without a shadow of a doubt run 15-16s with a wide variety of comps, you just need to be skilled enough to do it. The meta isn’t needed anywhere near as much as people make it out to be.

In a majority of keys, DPS find it hard to get into groups because there’s too many playing as a DPS. If everyone were playing a meta spec, it’d still be just as hard to get into a group since there’s a limited amount of spots.

As I see it, the tl;dr is that you want less mechanics, less punishment for failing mechanics, and less stupid people that demands meta specs where it isn’t needed (below world first keys).

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Eh I disagree. I dont like it with norm/heroic vs mythic. Bosses should do the same thing across the difficulties so ppl learn things.

What you get into a 12 and yolo some boss mechanic youve not seen?

Id like to see boss mechanics change weekly vs affixes, or maybe trash packs change. Way more variety but its the same across key level. Except im sure there will be aids combos that occur.

There is no system where people will stop failing in your keys.

You expect people to learn then? lolol.

The eternal optimist that i am

There’s nearly no affixes anymore. What are you even arguing?

Go stick to raiding then.

Is this some copy pasta you are plagiarizing from somewhere? Seen this “excel spreadsheet” argument before and it isn’t a good one.

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Like I always say, trying to make an end game pillar out of 5 man content within a MMO that has 40 specs is impossible. I’ve watched Blizzard flounder now for almost 10 years with M+, trying to make it a promiment part of the end game, and every season has been the same meta slave comps and class design being more and more skewed towards designing around 5 man dungeon content.

Every season, there’s a new meta with just a handful of viable specs, and if you’re not playing one of them, good luck getting into groups. It forces constant class tuning, but instead of balance, we just get a rotating list of “must-pick” specs while others get left behind.

It really takes away from class identity—every DPS needs big AoE, every tank needs high mobility and self-healing, every healer needs absurd throughput and utility. If you don’t fit the mold, you’re out.

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Lmao and youre just a terrible player who pays for KSM why should anyone take your awful opinion seriously. What a joke.

I think the last time I bothered doing KSM was in SL.

I’m sorry if you are offended that people think the spammable 24x7 M+ loot gravy train is unfair.

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Again terrible player that buys dungeon runs i ask again why should anyone take you seriously?

You seem nice and well balanced.

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Thank you, im standing on one foot as we speak very balanced

Oh it’s Felpickle’s alt. That explains it.

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My child im high priest fathergrabby