Point is that even with the ability to heal through it, the dispel affix is still sketchy with just two dispels.
I mean I’d take less. 20% was more of a placeholder number. Though, depending on the dungeon that changes. Just look at GB. I know when it comes to kicks, they’re technically avoidable but it’s also dependent on the kind of kicks you have and how long they live.
Let’s not get into Blizz’s design philosophy. As we’ve seen, the playerbase and the devs don’t share the same sentiment. The funny thing is, I don’t think it’d cost any more than it does now to design towards what I’ve proposed. Classwise, they’d just have to roll back nerfs which is just recycling code. Dungeon wise, that’s just less work they have to do.
As for healers. On one hand, I can understand where you’re coming from, but I think you overestimate the ability of the playerbase. While I’d prefer designing away from unavoidable damage, that does not mean the obsolescence of healers. Also, call me biased from pvp, I don’t like healers holding that much sway/weight in the group and I also think they should have an easier time. They’re doing the job most people don’t want to do, and Blizz has gradually been making it harder on them just to be “hard” over the years.
I’d gladly take new dungeons, but that was not the point of that statement. Current M+ is not challenging because of mechanics. The challenge is artificial and was created through Blizz taking tools away from classes and just slapping arbitrary things onto fights. It’s more a game of resource management now.
Harmless dummies if managed properly. I’m sure we’ve both had our fair share of people botching hooks and bombs. Or getting grip hooked on Redhook. There are also probably different ways to spice things up w/o just tacking on arbitrary AoE ticking.
I mean they were soloable by one or two specs in DF S3-S4. While I agree that they’re manageable as a group, as stated, I don’t like the emphasis on requiring group coordination for this as it diminishes what a group can do. If specs are designed with group coordination in mind it lowers the overall capability of a group. It’s like choosing between the 5 or 6 dudes coming together to form Captain Planet or just calling in the Justice League. Of course I’m calling in the Justice League over Captain Planet.
My god, man. Did you want to raise taxes too?
Agreed. That said, I hope you don’t misunderstand me. I’m all for a challenge, but it’s gotta be mechanically engaging and not just brrrr output. I’d be all for Blizz putting in mechanics like Ansurek P1 launches in M+. I also have fond memories of Tazavesh pt1 last boss’ portal games.
I’d also like to say, that despite us having opposing view points, I’ve rather enjoyed having a conversation about it as opposed to just getting offhanded remarks.
It was something I could handle personally, but aside from doing it with my close friends I’ve had guildies and casual friends struggle and I think it’ll be really good for them.
You’re in my boat as well. I’d like to do more of it with my wife and I feel like this could open the possibility for her to push a bit higher with me. Should be hella fun imo.
Interrupts and casts are like the #1 thing on their list in concept design, I can tell by a few hints:
No spec in the history of the game has ever had more than 1 pure interrupt.
They rely on casts WAYYYYYYY too much as a mechanic still.
There’s no homogenization between what mobs cast, you have no idea what they’re going to cast or how hard it’s going to hit unless you let yourself get hit by it.
The kick change rug pull they did at the last second in Dragonflight.
You still to this day don’t have interrupt protection.
There is a meta because classes are not homogeneous. Because of this there will always be a meta, and balancing isn’t really possible.
What I mean is melee dps. In a homogeneous world each class design would start like this:
Each melee dps needs 3 direct damage abilities
Each melee dps needs 1 channeled abilit
Each melee dps needs 1 offensive boosting cool down on a 2 minute time
Each melee dps needs an interrupt with the same cool down as other dps.
Each melee dps needs a battle rezz
Each melee dps needs lust.
Each melee dps needs a movement speed buff which has the same duration.
Each melee dps needs a major and minor defensive ability.
And so on. But in designing classes this way they can’t give pally a bubble which blocks all damage unless they do it for all melee dps.
With this design it’s easier to balance because you can change the graphic of all of those items while having the items do the same thing.
As far a mythics go you are right I don’t understand their logic. Why can I complete a 12 echoes with like 12 minutes left with like 10 deaths, but then I go into necrotic wake and have 1 death but still barely time the key with the same group. Seams to me like their formulas for time is really outdated or just bad. To me it’s simple 100hp = .1 second. If the mobs between entrance and end of dungeon including boss equal 2.5 million hp then it should take 41 minutes plus a buffer so said dungeon should take 45 mins. If my math is right. That’s 2,500,000/100 = 25,000 x .1 = 2500 / 60 = 41.6 plus 10% = roughly 45 mins. If my formula or math is wrong I think you get what I am saying. This way no matter how you split the health between mobs you are effectively equating health to time.
Also for mythics the OP isn’t wrong with tank busters and spell casting. It took them half way through the expansion to realize there are several bosses and mobs through this season that were honestly quite brutal to tanks if not one shotting them. The argument will be defensives or learn how to play but the first boss of threads & dawn breaker have two of the hardest hitting tank busters and sometimes would even one shot the player. But they don’t give us enough defensives to alternate for each tank buster.
Healing this expansion for me hasn’t been an issue, however I’ve been more focused on tank heals more this expansion than previously. I don’t know if it’s a bad thing but what I can say is it sucks when the tank looks like he’s okay because he’s running defensives then his defensive wears off and I spend the next 5 seconds healing him and only him until he can pop another defensive or the mobs die.
All of that and no mention of respawn points, RP, key depletion, and death penalties when you already have to run back and restart fight without blown cd’s? Tsk, tsk.
How? Two dispels handles four of the affixes. Don’t dispel the tank and they’ll heal it by themselves through active mitigation, worst case scenario you pop one minor heal on them.
If casts goes off it’s a failed mechanic, similar to standing in a frontal or a swirly. Those should hurt a lot as it’s 100% avoidable.
Alright, we’ll ignore that.
Making different role compositions as opposed to one standard composition equally (at least somewhat equally) viable for dungeons is extremely complex, and would take a lot of time and resources to do. That means more work, which costs more money, which has to come from somewhere. The players has to be willing to pay for that.
Making more dungeons is absolutely more work than redesigning old ones. That means more work, which costs more money, which has to come from somewhere. The players has to be willing to pay for that too.
Absolutely, people generally despise having to do difficult content for great rewards. I’m 100% convinces if Tier 10 delves dropped mythic track gear the majority of the playerbase would be thrilled, even though it would hurt the game.
It does, for all players that are competent enough to avoid the avoidable damage.
To each their own, I think it’s great. I just wish blizzard would implement DPS checks too so that DPS would stop being the only superflous role in m+.
All challenges are artificial in that case. The challenge lies in your ability to tackle the challenge with the tools available to you.
You really have to come up with some things to spice it up for me to buy this idea in that case. The idea that you remove all form of challenge by just doing the basic mechanics doesn’t resonate with me at all.
Doing the mechanics should make an encounter challenging.
Not doing the mechanics should make an encounter impossible.
You dislike end-game group content requirinf group coordination? Did I read that right?
Surely there must be something I’m misunderstanding here?
TWW just changed how stops work back to how they’ve worked in literally the entire rest of the game except DF.
Back to how they worked in SL, BFA, Legion, etc.
I do think the later half of DF may have caused some brain rot on handling packs after a year + of chaining 37 aoe stops to make every pack barely do anything.
I remember I commented this long time ago on an old expansion maybe becoz of Elitismhelper addon. I am unkillable with just the Dungeon Fight Mechanics. Only Affixes could kill me. I felt bad how nerfed Mythic+ nowadays. You get KSM with reduced affixes and still people complains despite of having advantage on gearing… Delves welfare epic gear, Way more chances on Weekly Cache, freebie Catalyst (we use to Raid to get tier pieces, now, it’s free), Crests and Valors. It’s impossible to lose on Mythic+. KSM is now a joke. It was not a joke then.
Kinda. Not the whole picture though. Mythic plus had the better reward-to-prestige system. It’s still better than the alternative, but this season is worse than it was last season, mostly on the feedback of a super-sweaty community that wants everyone else to learn their place.
Same mistake they made in 2010. Same mistake they made in 2014. Same mistake they made in 2020 and 2022. We’re just repeating history at this stage.
You have to imagine at some point they’ll figure it out. But we will probably see this again in 2026. That’s where I’d put my money, if I were a betting man.
My man, I’ve played borderline w/o pause since Wrath. I would happily take necrotic, sanguine, bursting, or the single add cc over fort, tyran, RNG orb collection, 5 dispels/giga heals, and extra death timer.
This is still very much the case when it comes to pugs. The top end leaks downward. Always. I still remember the plague of pink in lfg.
Because they’re very short conversations. Walk of shame too long? Put a closer respawn. RP too long? Cut it out or add X amount of time to the timer. Key Depletion? What about it do you want to discuss? Do you not want it to count to vault? Because gl getting that through. Do you want it to not drop a level? Don’t deplete the key or build it up again or let us pick the key we want. Death penalties? We already talked about the death timer affix and decided it was eh. Don’t die.
This tends to be the case when addressing problems.
For one if you call what we have now balanced, you must be having a laugh. You say what we have now is easier to balance, but things haven’t been balanced in a while. Also every melee dps doesnt need everything you listed. You could just give them their damage back and a lot of what you listed loses value because everything is dead before they matter.
Yea tank health bars feel like itunes visualizers as of the last few years. Also I’d recommend running a few more City of Threads and Grim Batols if you ain’t feeling the pressure. Or pug.
Sorry. Missed this earlier. No, I’d change how healers can interact with certain mechanics. One thing I’ve seen with EDNA is that healers request not popping every spike every wave of beams. I like this “creative freedom” healers get in dictating incoming damage. There’s also the dispel mechanic that gives the tank DR. I quite like this concept of timing dispels to do certain things, and I think that idea could be expanded on in the future.
Not all people who play tank and heals are built the same, man. Some of the players have the script for the show. More don’t.
Yes, but past a certain point, you can’t catch all of them given the range of kicks present or not present and current CC not putting casts on CD. Then you start moving into have a specific class territory.
Blizz doesn’t have to design specs by comp. They could just roll back nerfs and see where the dice land. It feels like no one at Blizz has heard of the story of the Gordian Knot or at the very least only apply it when it comes to nerfs.
Alternatively, they could just re-release the old dungeons w/o touching mechanics and just fix any annoying technical issues that were present. I understand that the creation of new dungeons takes resources, but those could be taken from not having to touch up old dungeons. There is also option C of porting Season of Discovery dungeons over because I’d very much like to do Karazhan Crypts or Demonfall Canyon on live.
Thats fair, but it also feels like a best case scenario situation. If a group does manage to not let anything bad go through, why wouldn’t we want them to go further? Also, most players ain’t like that.
Yes, but the situation changes when everyone has a different tool box and Blizz has taken from some people’s tool boxes more than others. At that point it just feels like poor sport. Thus, I opt to aim away from resource management stuff.
While I agree that mechanics should make the encounter challenging, they gotta be mechanics and not just output.
As for how to spice up Redhook, add more bombs so tank either has to kite the big adds into them or people have to EOD them on their own. Five bombs sounds good and it gives some freedom in positioning for the fixated target. As for Stitchflesh add a second abom for more tank pressure, and add extra positions for Stitchflesh to jump to and make the mechanics pressure be hook Stitchflesh or he’ll summon more aboms. And/Or add more hook interactions. Maybe an abom could hook some damage buff for the group.
I dislike that they’ve leaned so much into it to the point that it comes at the cost of player power.
I see, yeah I enjoy those types of mechanics too. I’d prefer to move away from the dispel mechanic though, as I like the tank being able to choose wether he lives a tankbuster or not.
That’s more of a player quality issue rather than a design issue though.
You can, unless you run truly unfit comps and don’t adjust pulls for those comps. For example a BrM monk, a holy priest, and 3 shadow priests, and then you do a big caster pull in NW or GB. That can be devastating, but it’s exceedingly stupid to even put together such a comp, and to pull that way with such a comp.
But doing that will just further strengthen a meta or trivialize dungeons.
It’s the different amount of resources to. Let’s say creating one entirely new dungeon is equal work to redesigning eight old dungeons. That means you’ll have to ignore 64 redesigned dungeons before you get eight new dungeons, unless you’re willing to pay extra for those eight dungeons. It’s just not feasible.
Haven’t tried those, so I haven’t got a clue, but I imagine that could be a good thing.
For players who aren’t like that, there’s currently lower skill brackets like m0, m2 etc. The ones who avoid all avoidable dmg proceeds to very high keys, the ones who avoid most avoidable dmg proceeds to 10-14, the ones who avoid little avoidable dmg gets to 6-9, and the ones who don’t avoid any avoidable dmg are stuck at entry level keys, as they should be. You pass the tests, you get to proceed, no failing upwards should be allowed in my opinion.
I think I understand. Instead of more mechanics like “interrupt this cast” or “kill this bomb before it goes off”, you want “bait this mob into this specific spot”, “make this mob hit the other mob”, “punt this object to do a thing against the mobs”. Mechanics that forces you to interact with the dungeon and it’s contains, rather than mechanics that forces you to use your own toolkit to counteract the dungeon and it’s mechanics?
I’ll admit I’m intrigued by the idea, and it would be nice to see it expanded upon. I don’t necessarily think one should exclude the other though, but if this is what you meant, I’d also like to see more of it.
Those aren’t being done my the average player base though. If your doing 14’s without a healer your already way above where 98% of the player base is skill wise
Fort+Tyr is lazy, but that’s exactly why removing more affixes doesn’t make sense. They added Fort+Tyr because they removed Tier 2 and 3 affixes due to people complaining about actual affixes. They should go back to how affixes were. Maybe bake in Fort/Tyr into base key scaling and add T2 and T3 affixes with a seasonal affix.
Yah but I think the ways they make it so that NEVER happened would be absolutely crippling to the average player base. I think the biggest problem M+ has is the disparity between players skill level.
To explain what I mean better is that, you have everyone in one pool at the start of the season, and if your lucky enough you can have a inflated IO/M+ rating by just getting lucky. Those lucky players than try to do keys that are normal for their IO rating… I think blizzard could and should just come and say “hey, we are tuning these to be primarily none pug gable content, while you can still pug these your going to probably want to be in an established group and probably on coms”
While it would make a large portion of the player base upset I do think blizz is trying to make M+ accessible by everyone when it’s simply not. And I’m a Very average 2k/aotc Andy…but the amount of people I encounter in keys that don’t have interrupt key binded let alone on their bars is astonishing. They need to have one set of direction for M+ instead of 5