No, you’re speaking for “most” people when you can really only speak for yourself. You don’t know what most people primarily raid for - only those people know all their reasons. You’re just making guesses and stating it as fact.
And regardless, you’re basing your supposition on the forums, which is not even close to the majority of the playerbase.
Nope, didn’t say “most people.” I said more people than they care to admit. Not engaging you any further since you don’t know what words mean.
Sorry, you said “many”. Same difference when you can really only speak for your own reasons. Unless you’re going to take a poll of everyone that raids and compile those answers you’re only making guesses and trying to say that your guesses are fact.
I think they do this because you can’t spam the raid–once you kill a boss, you can’t get loot from killing it again. M+ is spammable… especially now with valor upgrades, if you really want a particular item, just spam the relevant dungeon over and over and when it finally drops, upgrade it with your valor.
While the total RNG nature of it feels awful and grindy like a Chinese MMO, it’s still a better gear path than heroic raiding… and they should be comparable. 
Heroic raids are not the end all be all. Mythic raids are.
If you can regularly clear M+15, you shouldn’t really be struggling in heroic CN…or you may need to look for a guild elsewhere.
Also - 14+ slots means perfect rng for M+ vault would still take you almost 3+ months (that’s not even BiS - just no duplicate slots).
So I honestly don’t know what you are talking about.
Ok… Go clear +15’s in fresh 60 gear, grind valor, and then upgrade your items to 220 and let me know if that takes less or more time. I also like how you’re forgetting that 197 PvP gear was better than all other gear for like the first two months of SL. You’re forgetting that content was time gated as well.
It really doesn’t, though. You can anchor your rating in RBG’s and then mindlessly grind 2v2/3v3 wins for a day and get a full set. It’s a lot faster than people think if you just sit down and dedicate time to grinding the gear. Rating gain or loss doesn’t matter because you’re already anchored higher in a different bracket.
Took my priest from 50->60->full 213 in literally 2 days playing yolos then grinding generic 3’s team comps casually. Not even like ultra-grind-hard.
Well you got lucky, I tried five yolo bgs today in one of my alts (211 hpal) and lost all of them. Too many melee mongos in the horde.
You are clearly very confused or a super casual player. 210 is the max you can get from 15s, that gear is literally irrelevant not long into patches, and not only that the vast majority of the playerbase still isn’t even clearing 15s this far into the xpac anyways. Even with the new valor system you still need KSM to upgrade your gear to 220, which again the majority of the playerbase doesn’t have.
You’re getting 1 piece of 226 per week from your vault IF you are clearing a 14 or higher. That’s literally the only relevant piece of gear. The maximum you can get from m+ no matter how good you are at it is 1 piece per week. Mythic raiding and pvp both have potential to give you not only a 226 from the vault, but also from doing the content in general which means you could potentially get multiple max ilvl pieces from those forms of content as opposed to the 1 from m+.
If you think gearing with 210 ilvl pieces from spamming 15s is “OP” then clearly you arent doing any meaningful content that makes ilvl even matter to you
But you can’t get ilvl 233 pieces from the Vault for running M+ so why are saying “You just run Dungeon Keys.”? The M+ rewards are capped at 226.
For PvE there is one, and only one, path to BiS gear and that is killing Mythic SLG and Sire every week until you get the ilvl 233 drops directly from them or they show up in the Raid portion of your Vault rewards.
I never said I was struggling on Heroic CN. We have AOTC. I’m saying Heroic Denathrius is much more difficult content than running a +10 key without timing it, yet they both yield the same reward in the weekly Vault. Running +14 keys (not even 15’s) gives you Mythic Raid ilvl gear in the Vault & is much easier to organize & complete. There are plenty of players wearing Mythic Raid ilvl items who could never do Mythic Raid. Simply because they can easily complete +14 Dungeons.
You’re talking about the 1% who actually down Mythic End Game Raiding. If you can do that, you deserve 233 gear for sure. That doesn’t change the fact that gearing through M+ Dungeons is much more lucrative for the average player in comparison to Raiding.
So end of dungeon is way lower - so presumably you are focusing on vault alone.
A H CN clear averages 2-3 items per run + your weekly vault (so per week). It includes the chance at a 220 weapon and has a much smaller and predetermined loot list.
M+ vault is 1 item per week pulled out of the entire dungeon loot pool. If you cannot clear a 10, you are likely struggling to get up to it in the first place.
So are you somehow implying that 3 months of M+10 clears shouldn’t let that person get “heroic geared” (it certainly wouldn’t be BiS itemized)? Did it take you 3 months of HCN clears to get full raid geared?
Stop worrying about what others are doing.
You might have a better argument if you said that x% of your BiS gear still comes from M+ instead of raids and it shouldn’t be that way or feel fair (assuming that is the case for your spec and class).
But I don’t think worry about the 3+ month M+10 crowd impeding on your heroic loots should be a concern.
PVP gear needs to be lowered from 2100 to 2k.
You are already facing multi glads at 2k rating and boost groups. This makes it so the people that deserve 2100 gear can’t get it
I think PvP gear is a different beast entirely. I agree with you to a degree.
I would have preferred PvP gear only work well PvP (pvp power/resilience) or make the ilvl gap a little larger (10 to 15 ilvls - same for PvE gear going into PvP).
Then I would remove rating requirement from it entirely. I would just let the amount of conquest/honor scale based on rating (i.e. you get more of it the higher your rank).
While I get that character progression is important in an MMO and PvP, it does feel a little weird to give the best players (high rating) an ilvl advantage over the lower rated players. It’s not like they need the handicap.
They already get rewards in the form of elite sets, titles, tabards, mounts, leaderboards(noteriety) for climbing up the ladder ranks … so not sure player power should be a factor.
Or … Blizzard could fix the MMR system so we stop facing off against glads while we climb the ladder ourselves (i.e. preventing them from tanking their rating - or not letting it go below a certain point and/or instead of average take the higher players rating at all times).
It takes the average guild 80 attempts before they kill Denathrius on heroic. Did anyone fail 80 times before they timed a +15? Yet the vault gives you better gear from the +15.
That’s broken.
if you don’t differentiate between progression and farm, that’s true.
lots of people want to kill the bosses for the first time because they’re there and it’s a challenge, regardless of gear. but one of the things that kept people showing up for farm nights was the potential to get upgrades so you’d be stronger on progression nights. that motivation has shrunk a lot.
once you’ve killed H Sire and your guild only has 12 people who show up reliably, where do you go next? try to pug M Shriekwing with a group that’s almost half randoms? kill H Sire for another few months for gear that’s not an upgrade for anybody? put together an alt raid?
Now this actually makes sense to me. Thank you
I pugged it and it didn’t take me 80 attempts.
Also how do you define an “attempt”? Dying 2 minutes in during phase 1?
Does that compare to not timing a 15 which takes ~30 minutes?
This speaks more to why do folks not feel compelled to run Mythic raids. Is it because M+? Maybe? That population was dying out before Legion though.
Is it because it requires 20 people and has a fixed weekly lockout? Maybe.
You can’t just point at M+ and say “that’s the problem” when the problem has existed longer than M+ has. Has it made an existing problem worse? Possibly. There is a lot of overlap between M raiders and the >M+15 community (since those are the folks needing the >= 226 gear).
how many of the people in that pug were attempting it for the first time in that pug? somebody had to have done progression on it for the pug to go smoothly. most likely you had tanks, several healers, and a number of dps who all knew the fight already.
Oh absolutely, and the latter is all i’m trying to suggest here. I don’t remotely think M+ is the sole source of the problem.
We are pretty far gone from the vanilla raiding days or reading guides. Even before it launches you can watch a guide from the PTR on what needs to be done.
On average I need 1 or 2 attempts before I more or less have my mechanics down (depends on class/# phases - but < double digits).
But fair point.
I still think 80 seems excessively high - but if your raid team caps out at heroic then maybe. If you are a mythic raid team (in another life i was a mythic raider), then no, 80 seems way way too high for heroic and sounds more like hyperbole to me.
Skinner box working as intended.