What’s the gear difference between people timing 19s and 27s?
And they’ll beat any F1 driver that’s in a dodge colt.
First few weeks 0-4’s were tough as hell for most people. Now it’s pretty easy to 3 chest them with one or two total wet behind the ear carries in the group. Of course we know the mechanics better but the difference is mostly the gear.
And that’s what I think this data somewhat illustrates. With 1000’s of recorded runs if you assume the ones that end up at the top or the the best F1 drivers that had their best races, you get some insight how good everyone’s car is.
Well, when one repeats a dungeon over and over and over again, it is not surprising things like this happen.
Let’s be honest tho, runs like this are often successful bc of stacking some utility, trick, and/or other little things.
So is it gear or gameplay?
My thing was gear or SKILL. Gameplay isn’t skill, it’s knowing the content. Don’t twist it, there is a difference.
You wrote this
But you stated this too
Which is contradicted by gear capping but not content. It is skill to be able to, game after game, execute mechanics with a high degree of precision and do so over multiple variables. The ability to memorize, to rote play the dungeon, is still a skill
Which is why I am boggled. I agree that’s it’s definitely an intersection of both to achieve dungeon master ascension. But we have evidence of low gear, high skilled players completing bleeding edge content.
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It’s both, but I think it’s far easier to time a key with excessive gear than extreme teamwork and min maxing.
People are starting to solo 0’s with the right spec and gear now.
Easier is relative, for sure, but gear does prevent one shots and allows for more safety nets for mechanics, definitely.
Knowing the content is absolutely skill.
Some people can learn a raid boss in 10-20 pulls where it takes others 50+ to learn it. The former are objectively more skilled than the latter.
Skill in WoW isn’t just how close to your sim you can get in DPS.
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It’s actually the other way around. Without skill your gear is a complete waste. With skill, you can compensate a great deal for low gear. Perfect examples were the first wave of KSM players who were 190ilvl. I have seen countless 220+ ilvl players flounder in keys and do less dps than those significantly less geared. Consequently the lower geared groups timed while the other did not.
Understanding game play falls under skill. Knowing rotations, mob/boss mechanics, understanding utilities, ect. All fall under gameplay. I don’t know how you separate that from skill in your mind.
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Hard disagree.
Extreme teamwork and min-maxing is how guilds like Method and Limit can beat bosses like Mythic Council with an average ilvl of 205 or so, whereas guilds with an average of 225 ilvl still flounder on that boss.
You’re going to hit your Limit (pun intended) with just gear loooong before you’d hit your limit with strong teamwork and personal skill.
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I’m going to be completely blunt here. You are the perfect example. 220ilvl druid barely able to time 15s.
Skill outweighs Gear. They absolutely work together but someone with more gear than skill will struggle more than a player with more skill than gear.
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Heck, you can reference me and you. Our ilevel is pretty comparable, but you’re pushing much higher keys. Same race, spec, etc.
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In a game measured by time spent clearing content at even a casual level, more DPS / quicker is the answer to all of the hypothetical questions / statements presented as they relate to the current game.
The game has changed in that way, but the core of classes/specs haven’t - so the expectation of players is that each class / spec can perform at comparable levels in all content with skill being the determinable factor in getting invites or not. Currently, there are a number of classes that are just plain easy to play (some think higher skill ceiling classes should perform better) - I think that is a design issue and each spec should be designed to be complex / reward for being good at the game.
I’ve heard this idea that specs should excel in something, others excel in different things…I don’t buy that. Spec design indicates the way you do damage from an identity standpoint is different, it doesn’t need to be designed to be only good for one thing / not good at another thing. That’s just silly.
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I don’t mean to be rude to Quixote and some of the other players in this thread, but it’s definitely a mentality that’s prevalent among lower tier players.
“I’m not succeeding because I’m not the FotM spec, or they have more gear than me, if my spec and gear were as good, I’d be performing just as well as him”.
It’s not a dig at him personally, I used to think like that long ago back when my skill level meant that killing the Lich King on Normal 10 man was an actual achievement for me.
And while gear and spec strength are important, the reality is that WoW is an insanely complex game and playing perfectly is near impossible. There are people who play near perfectly, and those players are basically gods among mortals in the game who can manhandle 18’s like an average player would handle a +2.
But you don’t really see that depth as a lower tier player. You see a top tier player in either a stream or in-game absolutely crushing that dungeon or battleground or raid and think “yeah, I could do that”, but once you actually give it a red hot go you realize the insanity that is the players who can do difficult bosses in half as many pulls and with half as much gear without the advantage of strategies already thought up for them.
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Maybe to a certain extent, but the first 15’s were timed by guys in like 190 gear.
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Skill, defined in the context that I presented it in, is how one plays their class such as rotations, CD usage, ect. Gameplay equals that of game knowledge, ie, how many mobs are where, boss mechanics, ect. Any noob can watch YouTube videos and be a superstar on gameplay, but skill is when your put into the situation and be able to do it.
Gear, imo, is more important than the formerly mentioned aspects. Yes, all three are important, I am not arguing that, yet without gear skill and gameplay are useless. Players who push +15s in 185 gear are pushing the fold, they are the 1%, they are the exception. Any common player out there cannot accomplish that, so providing examples of the 1% is not a dependable resolve.
Gear, for an example is like running up to a brick wall and wanting to climb it. The gameplay teaches you about the wall, the skill is your ability to do so, yet none of that means anything bc you have no arms or legs, no mechanical contraptions, nor any friends to throw you over. Its you and the brick wall and there is no feasible way that you are getting over that wall without arms or legs.
That is what gear is and how it pertains to wow. That 1% might have mechanical contraptions or friends that would throw you over, but the majority of common people don’t.
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There’s a certain amount of truth to that, but conversely, you won’t time any keys that you aren’t mechanically sound in no matter how much gear you have. For most us, we need to outgear the content a little bit. At a heroic level ilvl, you’ve outgeared 15’s.
After that, it’s just about gaining experience.
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Most players lack skill that no amount of gear will overcome.
Right, but I announced that I did not refute that. I know skill matters, gameplay matters, but proportionately to the 99% of the playerbase, gear outweighs skill.