This is where classes are balanced though. If there’s not as much of an issue at 15, then it’s working as intended.
15s are not getting depleted because of low dps. Even higher keys are rarely untimed because of dps. They are overwhelmingly depleted because of avoidable deaths and wipes. You can time a +19, from experience, with a healer doing under 1k DPS.
If the run is so tight that the extra 1k would make it or break it, there other more pertinent issues happening.
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You look at players raider IO history over the course of months and you see them progress into higher keys.
You contention this is because their ability to avoid death was increasing?
If they just knew how to play when they had 197 gear they could have been doing 20’s instead of 10’s?
People naturally want to believe they are personally more skilled as their gear gets better. There is of course some of that but if it’s true go put on the 197 covenant gear and run some keys.
Absolutely. Avoiding death is a huge part of climbing M+. Every death not only removes 5 seconds from the timer, you also have to consider the DPS loss for that pull. The time to resurrect or the loss of a battle res charge. Not to mention the damage lost from losing food buff and maybe augment rune.
Deaths have a lot of implications in M+.
You realize people were clearing +15s at 197 at the start of the season right?
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I think the first timed 15 had players all in sub-190 gear. Not to mention none of the dungeon or affix nerfs had taken place yet.
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Do you think they got good at not dying? Lol
I got KSM at 212 ilvl. I have seen plenty of players struggle and flounder at +15s and even lower at 220+. Gear in no way reflects skill.
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Agreed.
But but that’s more a binary requirement, Clean run or not.
Gear determines the maximum potential without mistakes and with them.
I imagine they excel at not dying, lol. Probably played in beta, too, but still - good at not dying.
Something else to consider with the whole “not dying” concept - many dungeon bosses have soft enrage mechanics…if you can’t kill it in time, you’re likely dying. So dps helps players not die. Kind of a package deal.
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This is an obvious statement. Gear determines potential.
You should however, stop looking at numbers from RIO and trying to make interpretations from it. The data collected is so limited and is really not a good representation of how classes are actually performing. I mean Icy Veins even gives you that as a disclosure…
" It is incredibly important to emphasize that just because a DPS specialization is low in the tier list, it does not mean that you should ignore it completely. For the vast majority of cases, you should choose to bring the better player, not the better specialization . That does not mean it is a good idea to run nothing but melee dps for the entire raid, but more so that having more melee than usual on your roster is not a hindrance if they play well. All being lower tier means is that, all else being equal, those specs will be less desirable for the raid based on current tuning."
WoW Head:
" The data for this article was taken from the [Castle Nathria Statistics Page on Warcraft Logs under the Shadowlands Season 1 partition at the 95th percentile for Mythic difficulty in the window.
The idea of this article is to give a perspective of the state of class balance for Castle Nathria in Shadowlands Season 1, looking at the data of the most recent week in the raid.
We say perspective, as there are inherent biases in looking at the data this way.
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Specs that are considered underpowered are generally played less and tend to appear weaker than they actually are.
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This happens as many performance-oriented players will tend to play the strongest spec or class, increasing even further the gap between top and bottom specs.
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The balance between specs is very delicate and will likely change throughout Season 1, as player acquire more gear, different classes and specs tend to perform better with more secondaries"
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It won’t matter how much gear and dps you have if you aren’t staying alive. It might buy you an extra mistake, but you’ll never have to worry about the timer in those keys if you can stay alive.
Issue again being the recorded. Holy Paladins with Ashen Hollow have the highest potential DPS out of the healers right now. But you also need to pull around that cooldown.
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Wholeheartedly agree. Gear (and talent choices, race) is the potential. Gameplay - in the form of rotation execution, situational awareness, target prioritization, utility management and mechanics understanding - is the kinetic. That’s the “skill” side that takes the static gear, talent choices, etc, and attempts to realize that potential.
Just because someone owns a Lamborghini Countach doesn’t mean they can drive fast well. But they have the potential to over someone in a Dodge Stratus
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That man just drives about his day with his head in the clouds.
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Gear will always outweight skill. Without gear, your skills are useless.
They are complimentary
Yes, quite. But in the end, gear will always decide.
How do you explain this? Skill, determination and drive will decide.
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This is a good example, too.
The average ilvl of the group was 183 and it was timed well before dungeon and affix nerfs.
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And renown boosts and soulbinds and legendary ranks
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