Looks like it’s just going to be a disappointing day for you if you were hoping arguing with you was going to be on my priority list.
Sosari is not trying to argue with you, just pointing out the actual data which clearly does not support your case.
Most of this thread has nothing to do with PVP stuff, so I will not comment on any of your info there.
Raids being hurt by M+? Never. Raids have always been a staple in the game, and always will be. M+ is not something you need to do. Will it help gear faster, yes. Though most see that as a benefit to raiders. Gives them something to do besides pure raiding. Delves are in essential the same as M+. Designed to be something else to smooth out overall gear progression. People need to stop trying to conflate one harming the other. It’s not.
This problem has absolutely nothing to do with the interaction of M+ and Raids. This is idiots putting stupid stipulations on others. I was in Discord yesterday, and a buddy was playing his alt trying to get into a +8. The group leader wanted them to link the M+ title or CE to stay in the group. Stuff like that is the community being toxic. Not M+ hurting raids, or delves hurting M+.
TL:DR - The community perception has become more toxic because people expect more for easy content.
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I totally agree with you. The problem is, what do we do about it if the answer isn’t reducing the difficulty to time content back to DF S3/4 ratios where people weren’t so paranoid (or healing/tanking were easier so it seemed like more people were doing it–myself included)?
I’m all for changing Delves to make them as gear/crest farmable as M+ (frankly they should make raiding at the very least something teams can clear, and reset to farm crests out of on an infinite basis like M+ too, IMO). If I could sign on and run +11s without sitting in LFG for an absurd amount of time I would be playing WoW right now instead of tabbing in and out of Baldur’s Gate 3 to read the forums. Getting this toon ready for S2 is all I’ve got left to do, so if I’m not doing that I have no reason to log on, my seasonal goals were met 2 months ago on different characters.
My only want for this game is it to be as respectful of people’s time as possible, and for it to be active and enjoyable for the people who want to play it.
I understand where this is coming from, and I laugh along with others at some of the absurd requirements people put on their group requirements. The other side of this though, is that there are a lot of people who are, at best, dead weight, and people are frustrated having their time wasted by people who can’t perform with a minimal level of competence, even in easy content.
I don’t really worry about taking chances with people or groups, because I’m realistic about the fact that some keys fail, and my key isn’t precious. Everyone has one. But I also recognize this is also a result of my tank privilege. I can apply to basically any 10-11 and be accepted within seconds, and that is not the lived experience of most dps players. I might be a lot more careful about invites and groups if it were taking 30-40 minutes to get into or form one.
This is the important question. What can be done? The core issue is the imbalance between the numbers of people tanking and healing and the numbers of people playing dps.
I’m not a top tier player, and although I didn’t have any problem quickly reaching the goals I set for myself every season, it has definitely been a more intense experience, requiring me to play better than I’ve had to in the past. While I enjoy the challenge and feel really good about the noticeable improvement I’ve seen in my game, there are definitely people who aren’t interested in working harder to reach the same place.
Is there a way to entice more people to tank and heal without making the roles so easy that the players who enjoy having a challenge and the growth that comes with it aren’t underserved? While I understand that dps players aren’t having fun waiting to form groups, I don’t think the right answer is to make it more fun for them at the expense of people playing tank and heal.
I wish there was a way to cultivate a growth mindset in the community and encourage more people to embrace overcoming challenge as the actual fun part, and not just an inconvenient obstacle to the item level accumulation game they seem to be playing.
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You know, you could try something like social networking and make a team. Just saying.
Sadly not many share that view. They want things to be stupidly easy, with Mythic raid rewards.
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Prior to this season I mained Rsham for 4 years. Logs were fine, Rsham’s kit makes it insane for M+, got KSH a few times. Nothing special, but certainly someone people can farm out their mundane seasonal junk with without much difficulty. Posted here a few times (maybe even in the guild recruitment forum, I can’t recall), no bites, even made a macro to toss out at the end of dungeon runs that went especially well and no btags from that either.
If I can’t get them as a healer I don’t suspect my chances of accomplishing it as an off-meta DPS are going to be much better. It’s really not that easy to get a set group together, especially less when the only content I have any interest in doing is perfectly puggable.
Yeah, that does tend to blemish people coming to an understanding around here.
100% true. I did a lot of tanking until breaking through the 12 barrier. It really shouldn’t be that way, and I got disgusted by instant invites to keys I certainly shouldn’t be tanking. I don’t care for tanking, as the class fantasy of Arms and Fury are more my thing.
You mentioned goals, and I think that is very commendable. My goal is to stay in the 1% or better area when I actually play a season. If I ever get title, cool, if not, cool.
I’d like to think there is. Perhaps make mobs have more hp, but simply take away some of the tank busters or healer checks. Put more emphasis on Dps doing their rotation and putting out better dps. Of course, you would need to have a better control on dps balance at that point.
I understand that more than you know. Yet the team I’ve been working on is only 1 away from being complete. Takes time, and more so, effort.
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I think the comment was something along the lines of people being able to casually do weekly 15’s (edit: I looked and you did not say this I made this up lol) which is still not the case being that those are title/close to title keys even this late in the season. The 20’s were done in china with 1300 ilevel rings with the exception of yoda and Kira and I think they did 1 each. We also have the rings which add a key level. Happy new year indeed! 
Oh and of course many significant dungeon nerfs in particular the massive +12 nerfs after the post was made, an added 90 seconds to each timer ect
For the record, they reached out to me and we’ve done a key together, and I’m hoping we do more. Ironically, where I would normally be doing keys all day we’ve been struggling to fill a single group at times.
I have pugged more players, or pugged into more keys in the last three weeks than I have the last two seasons.
As for why people are MIA, I think the sheer amount of spells and interactions that players need to learn for M+ is too great and exceeds what the average player is willing to master. It makes me sad to accept that reality, but I think it’s true.
The full dungeon pool probably has twice as many important mechanics as the raid and players are expected to know almost all of them in order to participate effectively.
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Unfortunately this late in the season your score does not attract quality players who generally won’t even give you a chance. The M+ grind never stops especially if you haven’t built a name for yourself/added battle tags of quality players from previous seasons and created a “community” of sorts for yourself. 2800 players attract other 2800 players and so on. Title level players will typically not join keys hosted by these players either as they are tying to maximize their time spent in the game and increase success rates. If you can somehow find other likeminded and similarly skilled players to climb with it is your best bet although a very tall order this late.
To add I see you heal and great healers and tanks are hard to find in the LFG as they typically get scooped up by strong dps looking to push keys so if you are very good you can climb if you care to and are an outlier
Which is why they need to pull back the difficulty substantially. I wouldn’t mind playing with bads to farm crests and vault slots, but I’m not chancing a failed run with my wasted time by doing that in 10’s-11’s.
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The tank busters and healer checks are where the skill expression is for those roles. More health on the mobs makes them take longer to die, but it doesn’t really add any risk of death for the tank. No risk of death means the role can’t be failed, so literally anyone could do it. While I get that a lot of people would love that type of safety, it’s not engaging for people who don’t feel like they’ve achieved something if there was no chance of failing.
In my estimation, dps players are already way too focused on their rotation and putting out damage. This is why many of them can’t seem to handle anything else. For you unicorn dps players out there that reliably interrupt priority spells, use hard stop cc on non interruptible casts, actively dispel or off heal as necessary, use defensives at appropriate times, and just otherwise use the utility that your various kits provide it is noticed and appreciated.
I’m not a game designer, so I don’t know how to do this, but adding mechanics that penalize dps players in the damage meter might be a way to get them to pay attention. I suspect it will just ultimately fall on the healer’s shoulders though, with packs living 10 times longer than they should because the dps are standing in 90% damage debuff mechanics and then blaming the healer for going oom.
I know people hate them, but this is probably why pass/fail one shot death mechanics are appealing in game design. A player who fails the mechanic removes all of their damage in a way that is visibly not the fault of the tank or healer. But if the result is something that could be healed, bad players will expect that it should be.
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I understand tanks and healers want skill expression, and I’m not saying to remove them entirely. Just that is where some tuning could make those roles easier. Still, this is all spit balling and napkin math. Making the role a little easier might encourage more ppl to pick up those roles? Maybe.
I’m sure it would, at least to a degree. Is that good for M+ in general though? Should people who like tanking and healing have their game mode diminished so people who don’t want to tank or heal will do it because it’s easier? I’m not certain that is a good solution.
Death is pretty much the biggest dps loss possible and players don’t respect a lot of the mechanics that will kill them. There are also things like Censoring Gear that can hit dps.
Unfortunately I think the spell casts need more fanfare for some players to register them in the confusion. Maybe nothing would help.
Yeah, I addressed that in the last paragraph of my post. Many players absolutely don’t learn from pass/fail mechanics, but at least there is no way for them to blame the tank or healer. Instead, they just complain that the mechanic isn’t fair. It is apparently never their fault…
Things like censoring gear are fine in principle, but ultimately it falls on the tank or healer to handle the extra damage of the pack living for a long time.
Unfortunately, I think the only thing that would help is out of anyone’s hands except the community at large. Stop playing the game to make your ilvl go up and start playing the actual game. Start looking at challenges as things to make you better and give you a sense of achievement for successfully overcoming, and stop looking at them as a nuisance that hinders you from getting the gear you want.
(All “yous” here are the non directed plural and not meant for you specifically Deevax 
)
And here we are 3 months later and most of us are still struggling to get our portals. It’s definitely a harder season.
If you incentivize existing healers to move up one key level, you haven’t increased the number of healers willing to run keys.
So no. It already starts at being extremely easy (in normal /heroic dungeons.)
It’s objectively not harder.
TWW S1
DF D4
DF S3
Edit:
You’re also someone who never got portals in the past to begin with aside from DF S3. I don’t understand why you feel entitled to get them this season.
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LOL, you’re a little full of yourself there buddy. I started playing m+ in DF season 2, it’s called progressing the content. Why do you think portals should be unobtainable for people who haven’t been doing m+ for 3 expansions?
If many of us (especially healers) are seeing m+ as very difficult this season then maybe it’s very difficult this season. Struggling to get the crests I need to fully upgrade my heroic gear when I’m raiding heroic seems maybe poor game design.
Getting portals isn’t top 1% stuff.
Edit: I guess I started m+ season 1 lol I thought I took longer to get sucked in.