gear alone should give you 20% that you need. You’ll get better at dungeons too. Plus more pity nerfs.
Which is nothing. Raiders still cant get over it though lol.
This is a very weird argument, M+ in DF and the reward structure compared to difficultly was fine. Comparing that to being achieved “without effort” is just trolling.
The problem most people currently have is the SAME rewards they were able to earn for years are now being locked behind increasingly more difficult content. Maybe WoW is your top priority and putting in countless 10s of hours to get rewards in a video game is all that’s important, but I can promise you, to most people it’s not. They will simply stop playing when the content to get the rewards they have always been able to get is now way more difficult and no longer enjoyable. This is what’s worrying, when player numbers drop so does the $ invested into WoW, so if you actually care about the game you might see it different. Driving players away IS a problem.
I never understood the stance of WoW needs to be difficult because… (insert argument). This is a video game… should there be challenge, absolutely. But should one of the core gameplay and reward systems be changed to be so punishing that it pushes long time players away from the content. No absolutely not, M+ and its difficulty has always been scaling, with a floor and an infinite ceiling for a reason. Jacking up the floor and increasing difficulty for no extra rewards is bad.
The idea of everyone doesn’t need to do high keys, or the just get better argument is largely a failed talking point since there is no NEW incentive to get better. Why should I have to get better to get the same or less rewards I have been able to get for years. Why should I have to deal with game mechanics that clearly make pugging more difficult than it used to be for no new upside. When you’re looking at people who have been KSH/KSM and have always been able to get top rewards from M+ but are no longer wanting or able to because of game design, it’s a problem.
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The reward structure wasn’t fine in DF, and it changed every single season.
It’s not that WOW needs to be difficult, but the concept of better rewards with higher difficulty is on the basis of excluding people.
So, how many people should be included?
Else, LFR and queued content can provide the best gear.
But people are in an uproar over delves giving out better loot than m+ for less effort, so I’m not sure if that’s the path people want.
I have had a few mates come back for this xpac and have been loving it. They stepped foot in M+ and have hardly been loggin on now. Cant blame them even as a M+ Vet. Its just not fun.
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why is it not fun? It’s how it’s always been.
the difficulty to reward ratio is what is off putting to me
But that’s just like DF S1.
Easier even.
I preferred s2-4 and hoped they’d stick with that.
it’s been a few months and we now have timed 20s (NW and ARAK). 600 pages into the leaderboards we’re still seeing people with timed 16s. now obviously some of those are runs with the same players in them! but i think it’s clear lots of people are timing keys higher than 11 after a few months. happy new year! 
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The population is near rock bottom but sure, some people timed a 20, m+ is fine ya’ll!
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I’ve shown you the numbers before. Why do you keep insisting on spreading misinformation?
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that’s not what i said at all. even as a strawman it’s pretty bad.
I saw identical arguments after SL S2 when a bunch of players got Glad drakes and all the ‘glad every season’ players were pissed about it. Then every following season you would see the usual suspects arguing what a great, and ‘on track or better’ than previous seasons spot arena was in after Blizzard clamped down on inflation (they had graphs too). Then came Rated Solo Shuffle, and BG Blitz, and it siphoned nearly all of the more casual players out of the content. Now those same people are sitting around 2200cr because arena is so dead the R1 cutoff is currently 2600.
Blizzard is already adding crest farming Via Delves next season (unfortunately at such a low amount that its barely worth doing). But they will likely expand upon it eventually as more and more DPS demand it, and then in a couple years there will be a bunch of surprised Pikachu faces around here if Delves get the same treatment RSS/BGB got.
It’s almost comical how often history repeats itself in this game, and players who were there to experience it seem to have selective memories surrounding it. M+'s creation dealt a heavy blow to the almighty raider, simply because it was faster to get in and get your stuff done in dungeons than it was to sit in LFG while people demanded overqualification.
So raiders complained, and season by season the bar gets raised a little. Now M+ players are doing the same over Delves while sealing their own doom by wanting to separate themselves from low KSH players for pride purposes. So eventually M+ will see an exodus and you’ll see some familiar faces around here embodying denial.
They’ll argue with you until the bitter end, even after the damage done is obvious. Better to just ignore it and watch it all play out.
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You realize this game doesn’t need gear rewards to function?
And PVE is not PVP?
As long as I have 4 or 19 other people, my game mode functions.
What blow? I’ve been raiding consistently since 2008, and I don’t recall any blow, heavy or otherwise to my raid experience. If anything, M+ has helped by smoothing out the bad rng that can sometimes happen waiting for a raid drop.
Are you trying to claim that raiding has somehow suffered because of M+? Do you have anything other than wishful thinking schadenfreude to support that? I realize I’m only one person, but that claim doesn’t resonate with me or anyone I know.
Honestly, if the players who have no interest in actually engaging with M+ beyond the loot opportunity leave it will be addition by subtraction. No one who actually enjoys M+ likes consistently carrying people who have no idea what they’re doing and no interest in learning. Removing a whole lot of dead weight might even help some of the numerical disparity between tanks/healers and dps. You can be sure almost none of that dead weight is tanking or healing, so you’re removing a lot of the dps bloat right off the top. Then you have to factor in the enjoyment factor for the people playing tank or heal. I get burned out quickly in groups where I’m going 85-90% of the interrupts and still seeing priority casts go off, but I get energized and excited to do more when I’m in a group that interrupts and cc’s, and otherwise uses their kits to manage the dungeon as a group. I can only imagine a similar dynamic exists for healers having to work extra hard keeping bad players alive vs. groups that play well.
I don’t think your predicted exodus is a bad thing at all. When can we start?
Except your side is the one that’s ignoring actual data and weighing anecdotes above all else.
If I see an M+ complaint thread I cannot know who will be the person making it, but I can always be certain that you and 1-4 other recognizable people will be replying in contradiction to whatever the complaint is.
Ever hear of the term ‘vocal minority?’ Anyway I’ve said my piece, you have yourself a terrific Friday.
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Nothing you said counters the fact that one side has actual data and numbers and your side sticks to echo chamber anecdotes.
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Do you actually think it is unusual for people on a discussion forum with a specific interest in a topic to weigh in on threads of that topic? Particularly when many of the complaints are poorly thought out and made by people with limited experience in the topic. I don’t think this is the smoking gun you think it is.
The people posting on the forums are a very small representation of the game community. There is a strong tendency for people to post complaints, and for satisfied people to enjoy the game without comment. In all likelihood, with that in mind, the people complaining would be better described as the ‘vocal minority’ than a handful of people who take the time to post thoughts without being motivated by an axe to grind.