M+ changes in DF are bad

[Battlemaster-stormrage]

@Prîdë-moon-guard

What’s the PVP changes like?

Gearing similar to WoD, where you only have 1 set of honor and conquest (vs the 15 ilvl sets in shadowlands) and conquest gear isnt rating locked inside pvp

[Debbyfrowner-thrall]

@Azuremi-proudmoore

I think Blizzard thought getting gear in M+ was too easy. Doing a 15 getting mythic raid quality gear people having mythic tier sets before most raiders even down the bosses was kind of dumb.

Seems they are correcting that problem by making it vastly harder to get high ilvl gear out of M+.

It doesn’t really change anything because mythic+ will still be pushed onto raiders to get gear. All this change did was make it take more time and increase the difficulty. From my point of view it’s just making raiders spend even MORE time in mythic+. Bad changes

[Yonbi-illidan (Yonbi)]

@Sentenzà-illidan

Every single tier this expansion but CN was an exception to your point.

Point was this:

Reduce max ilvl discrepancy between raiders and m+ with the following:

• tier accessible in all content (fixed)
• reduce ilvl gap by restricting number of higher ilvl bosses to last boss - this lowers equippable 311 gear to 3-4 items instead of 6-12 depending on SL season.
• reduce the ilvl gap by making GV more deterministic (a lot of M+er’s aren’t actually at 304, but rather between 298-304 due to GV rng)

If they did this - then trinkets would likely be the sole cause forcing you to raid and/or CE boss loot (assuming you have access to this). Both are problems that exist today and will still exist in DF despite ilvl changes.

[Apokalypsis-azjolnerub]

@Humanbeak-pagle-2130950

Just like Mythic+ players threw a fit about EoD loot nerfs? S1 was terrible all-around

Thats what I dont like about this, valor helps yes but its annoying. The vault is bait. The chances of you actually getting a usable piece of gear decreases exponentially a few weeks in. Of course being able to reforge into tier will help that as well but still doesnt feel right to me.

[Debbyfrowner-thrall]

@Raiimir-stormrage

It’s ok to not have the best gear. What’s not ok is for content much harder than Mythic raiding to not have some comparable reward structure to Mythic raiding.

A lot of us who do keys never asked to have mythic raid item level gear. I just wanted to have the best gear for mythic+ come from mythic+ for the most part.

[Shantarin-kelthuzad]

@Apokalypsis-azjolnerub

I get it you want us to raid but i’m not going to. What I am going to do is think about not buying your product and paying you every month.

They’re balancing M+ drops against raid drops so raiders aren’t obligated to farm M+ for raiding.

[Apokalypsis-azjolnerub]

@Shantarin-kelthuzad

They’re balancing M+ drops against raid drops so raiders aren’t obligated to farm M+ for raiding.

They still are. Not having a lockout on mythic+ will still force them to do it. The issue that they are trying to fix isnt mythic+, its raiding.

[Sentenzà-illidan]

@Yonbi-illidan

reduce ilvl gap by restricting number of higher ilvl bosses to last boss - this lowers equippable 311 gear to 3-4 items instead of 6-12 depending on SL season.

I’m not seeing the problem. 2 bosses drop higher ilvl loot but it is only +3 instead of +7, aside from 1 ring and 1 bow. The delta is certainly smaller than any other tier in SL even including CN.

[Angelicus-faerlina]

They can just say no. No one is holding anyone hostage and making them run anything.

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Debbyfrowner-thrall

A lot of us who do keys never asked to have mythic raid item level gear.

Ok, you don’t have to get it either. It’s there as an option for those who want it.

@Debbyfrowner-thrall

I just wanted to have the best gear for mythic+ come from mythic+

That’s what you’re getting. That implies a bump in ilvl.

@Apokalypsis-azjolnerub

The issue that they are trying to fix isnt mythic+, its raiding.

This loot buff isn’t about fixing raiding. It’s about fixing an issue with M+ rewards. Nerfing M+ rewards doesn’t fix raiding.

[Shantarin-kelthuzad]

That’s not how competition works.

@Apokalypsis-azjolnerub

They still are. Not having a lockout on mythic+ will still force them to do it. The issue that they are trying to fix isnt mythic+, its raiding.

Sure, but it makes sense that only the highest keys give the gear that’s comparable to the best you get in raiding.

[Angelicus-faerlina]

@Shantarin-kelthuzad

That’s not how competition works.

That is a behavioral problem. Not a game mechanic issue.

[Yonbi-illidan (Yonbi)]

@Sentenzà-illidan

2 bosses drop higher ilvl loot but it is only +3 instead of +7

If it was only 1 boss, you would reduce the number of slots of 311 dramatically.

It would in and of itself reduce the delta from max M+ geared to max raid geared to +4 average on its own (11 * 304 + 4 * 311)/15 = 305.86 (~306 if you dual-wield 311) vs. 304 from GV.

Of course that assumes M+'ers could reliably hit the 304 cap via GV, which is hard due to RNG and will continue to be hard in DF.

@Sentenzà-illidan

I’m not seeing the problem.

It virtually eliminates the ilvl gap problem, without the need to introduce new ilvl tiers within raid and/or deal with raising floors in M+ or messing around with those ilvl distributions.

[Shantarin-kelthuzad]

That’s not how game design works.

[Murdercarpet-zuljin]

@Sentenzà-illidan

KSM Andy getting mythic shriekwing tier loot in both cases.

Is “KSM Andy” the new “entitled” slur to you? Why do you play a game where you despise other players so much? Are there no games out there that cater sufficiently to you?

Maybe you are the problem, if you can’t help yourself from using slurs to describe other players you see as unworthy of playing your game.

The true “entitlement” is wanting to have gear and content removed from others because you see them as less than human because they play a videogame differently from you.

And actually…

Are there no games out there that cater sufficiently to you?

There ARE no games that cater exclusively to elites. And are both large and successful. There aren’t enough elite players to support a game the size of wow.

[Sentenzà-illidan]

But additional tiers of loot in the raid is a good thing. Painsmith should have better loot than Shriekwing or Terragrue.

[Yonbi-illidan (Yonbi)]

@Sentenzà-illidan

Painsmith should have better loot than Shriekwing or Terragrue.

No one is fully gearing out with VG or Tarra alone.

We are just introducing the opposite problem now. What if VG/Tarra drop the stat combo you want but Painsmith doesn’t?

Are we banking on the 3 ilvls of main stat to account for the difference?
Will entire loot tables need to be redesigned as a result (can’t have trinkets/weapons dropping from early bosses, so players don’t get doubly shafted).

[Debbyfrowner-thrall]

@Shantarin-kelthuzad

Sure, but it makes sense that only the highest keys give the gear that’s comparable to the best you get in raiding

I thought the whole point of these changes was to get raiders out of mythic+. I don’t understand why they’re changing things and making mythic+ worse if it’s not solving any problems

[Murdercarpet-zuljin]

@Debbyfrowner-thrall

I don’t understand why they’re changing things and making mythic+ worse if it’s not solving any problems

It’s one of their base design principles.

[Angelicus-faerlina]

@Shantarin-kelthuzad

That’s not how game design works.

The game isn’t designed for one specific group. A consistent error that lots of people here make. Even within the M+ community there is vast granularity in what people desire out of the system.

Lots of people look at that, group them all together, and then scream that nobody in M+ can be happy.

When it’s really a spectrum of people with different goals.

@Debbyfrowner-thrall

I thought the whole point of these changes was to get raiders out of mythic+

Got a link for that one? Seems a pretty sus assumption to have come from devs.