I mean… that’s a sort of “it depends” situation. Again, it is about the delta. CN was fine because you only missed out on a weapon and like 1 piece of gear.
It was less fine when it involved stuff like Aegis, Jotun, RDM, OWS, Jaythis, Dom Sockets, or in S3 Gavel, Sigil, etc.
Blizzard has no interest in ending the creation of OP items, so bringing the ilvls closer will help address the gap that was widening.
I meant for people who don’t want to step up.
The gear should be available. If people don’t feel like stepping up, it’s ok if they don’t get the very besst.
I think Blizzard thought getting gear in M+ was too easy. Doing a 15 getting mythic raid quality gear people having mythic tier sets before most raiders even down the bosses was kind of dumb.
Seems they are correcting that problem by making it vastly harder to get high ilvl gear out of M+.
Rofl, what? How?
You just said you feel compelled to raid in SL despite the fact that GV and most of the raid drop the same ilvl.
So presumably it is something you want that is not just ilvl specific.
So what is making you feel like you have to raid today? How is that any different in DF?
Could it be that you aren’t actually getting 304’s reliably and are relegated to the 298 upgrade because the GV is so RNG (which I brought up ages ago)?
Otherwise there shouldn’t be any ilvl discrepancy at all (unless your items are dropping from the last few bosses- which they could have reined in by reducing the number of high ilvl bosses to the last one).
keeping the “Dinar” system will also alleviate getting those items
I vote for legendary dungeons. That you can do once per week. Only 5 deaths allowed and you are kicked out but the loot is of mythic raid quality. The dungeons will have all new bosses, gear, random events, and the monsters get stronger the longer it takes you. They will also give out awesome transmog gear and mounts to any who can brave their way through them.
I’ve always raided. I love raiding. What are you talking about ?
Because I enjoy it.
It won’t be for me.
My DK that does much less M+ than my Hunter has many more 304s and a 311 weapon.
Raiding is by far more rewarding now than M+. By far.
Do they? Because that isn’t even close to true in S4. Also in S3 half of your gear was able to be 285 IIRC, and in S2 we had Dom Socket gear in 5 of your slots on top of weapons and trinkets, once again bringing over half of your template to being Raid loot.
CN was the point in SL where we had a relative balance where raiding didn’t feel needed at all (maybe a couple items from raid were good but they were just a few more stats). Of course the Raiders threw a fit about that so we are where we are now.
Just like Mythic+ players threw a fit about EoD loot nerfs? S1 was terrible all-around 
EoD loot nerfs were in BfA and carried over to SL.
S1 actually introduced Valor upgrades which was a boon to EoD drops.
“20s” that are tuned as current 23s. Dangerously close to “only meta classes welcome” which is already getting to be an obnoxious problem in M+ due to Blizzard’s unwillingness to normalize the classes’ performance because they live in fear of the hOmOgEnIzAtIoN bogeyman.
23s don’t require meta comps.
M+ and raids don’t require a lot of things players do. Yet the community enforces that behavior.
Sorry but everyone upset with these changes don’t come off as anything but someone who wanted a free ride to mythic loot.
Seen and ran plenty of non-meta specs in my own 22-24 keys.
Which they still get in 16 keys. Which makes the anger and rage even more baffling.
For once we agree Vald 
None of this answers my question.
How is DF changing this? It isn’t.
GV and mythic raids have near ilvl parity now. This is still true in DF. If you feel forced to raid today for BiS, nothing about DF inherently changes that.
Unless you are settling for something other than BiS, which you could do today.
I mean that is fair, S4 is a bit of an anomaly though, with so many “end bosses” to farm for 311s.
Dom sockets were just a terrible replacement for legacy tier (legacy - only accessible via raids, current - trend of being op).
My point still stands though.
The average boss loot table is 3 or 4 items. If the 311’s were reduced to just the last boss at best that would mean only 3 or 4 of your 15/16 items would be 311, the rest would be 304. This would bring the average max ilvls of M+'ers more inline with raiders on its own.
Hopefully at this point the whole “tier from raid only” thing is in the past which would solve the dom socket problem.
The trinket thing is still an issue which the ilvl changes in DF will not inherently change. So you will still be raiding for those, or again just settling for second/third/fourth best - depending on how things shake out.
The GV rng still sucks in DF, which is what honestly contributes to the majority of the gap (i.e. M+er’s aren’t reliably full 304, quite a few are 298 due to rng). GV is also not changing in DF (so far).
I have my moments I suppose.
It is.
421s and 415s end of dungeons means there’s much less of an incentive to go into raids to get the gear. Those 424s are much less of a gain now, and you’ll have to weight in the time investment to get into a guild that will be able to even get 7/8M or 8/8M early enough in the season. If your guild gets CE in those last few weeks after extending for 2 months, you might not even see a single 424. Would it have been worth it to waste your time raiding then ? Probably not.
You don’t quite seem to understand what Mythic raiding implies.
Forget 421 GV for a moment. 2400 415s. Early season, that’ll be much less effort for good Mythic+ players than doing 4/8M raiding 2-3 nights a week. Right there, there’s a big reason to not raid if you don’t like raiding and just do it for gear.
?
Every single tier this expansion but CN was an exception to your point. Most M+ players were content with S1 after 9.0.5. So no, your point doesn’t really stand at all.