I know, partially because keys are popular and they don’t want to split pve gear like they did with pvp, even though it was a massive success in pvp. 
I’d love to be able to just do keys and get 100% bis like that while ignoring raids, just like how I imagine lots of raiders don’t want to fall behind for not doing keys.
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Eh I’ve seen pieces drop not at all, or maybe once. In personal experience, same few items drop over and over and over.
And raid reclears burn people out or they get bored. Normally after about 2-3 clears after AOTC, we just stop raiding and take a break til next raid because nobody is motivated to keep finishing for the items
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All 3 of those teams existed before this gear system.
You literally could’ve made this post about any expansion, because versions of those teams and varying skill/effort levels has always existed.
I guess we are pretending that pvp participation isn’t down…
The big elephant in the room is that keys are only popular because of their loot gravy train.
The Ego Score crowd is pretty small.
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Except with the upgrade system, it made it even worse. A guild that can’t kill Heroic bosses doesn’t get “Wyrm” crests, so their gear is stuck at 4/8 Champion as you can get “Drake” crests in normal to get 4/8. The issue here is those who do M+ and farm 11-15 keys get Wyrm crests. So a team that doesn’t do M+ vs a team farming M+ now has very big gear differences
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M+ allows for end game content outside of it to become completely obsolete in a matter of weeks.
Ots so unbelievably obvious and the only way you could possibly not understand this is if you never played this game when actual progression through raids existed.
World first mythic raid race over in like a week and a half, unorganized pugs ignoring mechanics and steamrolling heroic all the way to aotc in a week or two… all because m+ allows people to outgear content way too fast, and in some cases before it’s even released. Let’s just ignore that though… let’s pretend none of that happens…
LFR hero? Lmao… ok kiddo. @adaia sick grey parse on that single heroic kill bro.
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Split gear and raids die. Raiders primary motivation has always been their sense of superiority. Take that away, and it’ll just dry up.
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I’ve played since 2004. And watched the player base shrink until it fell off a cliff in mop/ wod.
Nah, more than that. The entire game dies.
How about blizzard stop spending so much time, money and resources on content so few do. Let raiding die.
A team that can’t kill heroic in this tier wouldn’t be able to do 12-15 keys anyway.
Low key the right answer. The current format for raiding is old and busted, it needs to be totally reimagined. Why do you think it goes in life support every time an alternative is found?
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This raid is stupid easy. But come on. Heroic sarkareth is harder than a freaking 12.
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Yeah, I know. 
I did tons of CMs in mop-wod and 99% of people only did them for the cosmetics then bailed. If keys didn’t pour free loot all over people then they wouldn’t do them.
Hmm? Participation has been fine/good.
Depends where they get stuck. If they can kill rashok heroic, they can time a 16 UR.
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Sure they can. Keys are vastly easier than raiding.
You would need to separate M+ lockout based on fragment drop for this to be close to fair.
So technically you could run each dungeon 3 times a week; once to get whelp frags, once for drake, once for wyrm.
I’m not a fan of this, but anything is better than making raid/M+ gear not work for the other; all that is further fragment a game, turning it more into a lobby simulator than an MMORPG than it already is…which I know, is hard to believe. It can happen.
It also leads to the possibility of not letting M+ or raid gear work in the open world. It sounds insane and a false equivalency, but every slope can become slippery.
exactly it’s junk, Even on the poll raiding was 5th or 6th down as to what players like.
But you have a finite number of slots in the raid. So every time a drop goes out, your chances increase. By the end of the season, most gear is getting sharded/vended.
It’s not “close to fair” right now, it’s massively slanted in favor of M+.
You can’t even cap on Wyrm/Aspect crests unless you do M+. Even a full raid clear won’t get you close.
THE ENTIRE GAME IS DESIGNED AROUND HAVING TO DO MYTHIC+. THAT’S THE PROBLEM.
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