If it was a damage tuning issue, I’d still actively being playing it as my Cutting edge raid/mythic+ character.
WoD had a unique ranged DoT playstyle for a hunter, with engaging procs.
Legion had a much more unique resource system (MB charges as a “secondary power”), a much more engaging rotation (procs for MB, waylaying traps, butchery being enhanced for larger AoE, etc).
Instead we gotgutted in the Legion -> BFA transition
MB stacks no longer matter
MB is no longer in interesting charge based mechanic
serpent sting is vastly worse than lacerate ever was (easily have periods of not using it for 1minute+, worst lacerate ever was, was 1 every 15 seconds)
way of the Mok’nathol removed
DPS traps removed
Flanking strike reworked completely
Cooldowns replaced with a trashy small damage buff and extra proc chance for an unsatisfying generator
Traded a unique, while terribly weighted mastery for a boring damage mastery that effects half of your kit, and is actually less desirable
Playstyle has devolved to a generator/spendor spam with the sole purpose of extending your dps cooldown for 80%+ uptime using the birds of prey talent, essentially turning into a much more unejoyable frost DK
The only positive that came out of the BFA changes was most of the kit shifting to being able to be used from a range to help with downtime and PvP.
youre probably more forgiving of BFA and I am. I hate it.
They ruined things and I was unhappy with and still am.
All I really am saying over all is SV is fun to play. I like the melee hunter thing. I like having to think about the fight instead of fighting at distance all the time. Precisely why I dont play my mages much at all.
some here apparently dont like SV being melee. I like it.
I agree it needs some tweaking and in my opinion another filler spell to make a good rotation with, but overall I’ll keep it like it is over making it ranged only again.
So, why bother creating an entirely separate spec then if all that was needed was to add in a talent in the BM section which allowed for certain ranged abilities to be replaced by melee abilities and you would be able to make use of said melee weapon, by replacing your ranged weapon?
You mean current MSV? It’s not similar to the old RSV. Not even close. And I never said as much either.
What I said was “that the devs used the argument of RSV being too similar to MM as an excuse in an interview, as to why they decided to remove RSV in favor of bringing in MSV.”
Which again, RSV wasn’t. It had it’s own niche(s), it’s own unique theme and fantasy. And mechanics.
Again, I’m not against having a spec like current SV(MSV). I’m against what was done to “make room for it”.
To late. They’ve already made that choice to create an entirely different spec.
By your logic, they can just remove MSV and add in such a talent into BM, along with removing the talents from BM which pretty much no one currently uses(and there are quite a few of them) and add in things like Serpent Sting or Wildfire Bomb(which could be designed with the combo of Wildfire Infusion in mind).
I’m not saying that this is something they should do. But it seems as if you would be just as happy with the above as you would with MSV being a separate spec.
You’re not actually reading what people post do you?
I’m happy that you’re enjoying SV and the theme of it but stop inferring the other specs are brain dead.
It really isn’t any harder to tunnel a target at melee with so many gap closers while generally being excused from doing major raid mechanics because it’s more effective to dps key targets as melee.
Range typically has to pick up the tab on doing the mechanics.
Now try doing that, executing perfect rotation without loosely binding ability sequences to bring your A game and contribute as part of a team
Read your own class guide. Survival is capable of very good single target damage and burst AoE. BM, however, beats it at both while being ranged, fully mobile, and having the same utility plus spirit beast heal, minus a shorter interrupt CD.
Also, I’m not sure why people bother putting so much stock in SV’s tuning. Ranged SV, outside of the disaster that was 6.2, also had pretty good single target damage and AoE (more sustained than burst, however). Tuning is not dependent on whether the spec is melee or ranged.
I did not say SS and WFB were the best abilities. I said they were the only unique abilities. This is a matter of thematics.
Raptor Strike, Mongoose Bite, Carve, Butchery? They are stock-standard physical melee weapon abilities indistinguishable from those of a Warrior. Mongoose Bite is particularly unique mechanically but there isn’t anything about it that’s intrinsically “Hunter” and not fitting of a dime-a-dozen melee berserker archetype.
Kill Command, Coordinated Assault? All but lifted straight from BM. BM literally has Kill Command even if it serves a different role in the toolkit, and Coordinated Assault is extremely similar to Bestial Wrath in both effect and aesthetic.
Meanwhile, no other spec in the game throws bombs or uses poisoned projectiles (besides Marksmanship if you spec into Serpent Sting). This is the munitions expert aspect of the spec that has been a mainstay since the spec first had a unique identity of its own. Serpent Sting was a staple of ranged Survival and WFB would have been an extremely good fit. Funnily enough, neither of them are particularly good fits for a melee spec. As I was saying, the fact that being melee conflicts with the only part of the spec that is truly unique and adhering to the historic identity of the spec should really tell SV Hunters something about the merits of being melee in the first place.
The point is that it’s spectacularly hypocritical when Blizzard and their forum warriors swore up and down that ranged SV was too aesthetically similar to Marksmanship to warrant being a different spec purely because they both used a ranged weapon (not a peep about, say, the Warrior DPS specs or anything, by the way) yet here we are with Survival increasingly leaning on BM’s identity and using the signature ability itself. Ranged Survival wasn’t running around using Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot once the spec identities were truly cemented (~Cataclysm).
Kill Command is not just some baseline fluff. It WAS that in the earlier days of WoW’s history but then it was elevated to BM’s signature ability; the most iconic ability of the spec besides Bestial Wrath. Other specs should not be using Kill Command, for the same reason they shouldn’t be using Aimed Shot. While it’s important to have some aspects shared in a class it’s also important to preserve the key bonus abilities each spec itself gets to use. It’s weird that I’m the one saying this here because I’m usually the one criticising Blizzard for going too far with spec uniqueness, but I guess that just further highlights the hypocrisy of how they handled SV.
Spare me your fake concern because I don’t care. Clearly you’re content with posting here instead of “going out there and seeking what makes you happy”.
Theme does matter to me. Before Legion SV and MM both fulfilled different themes that depended on a ranged weapon. BM, too, but it’s much more based on the pet than the ranged weapon itself. That was good for the game; we had meaningful exploration of ranged weapon archetypes.
I respect people’s preference for melee themes. However there are 12 other melee specs in this game so that respect ends when melee players start championing the removal of ranged specs just for another chance at getting that particular variant of melee combat they get the most.
Survival has always been an opportunistic munitions expert. Melee doesn’t fit the theme.
Who knows? That’s your problem. They shouldn’t be removing specs people like from the game just for your hyper-specific melee taste. Should they also remove BM and/or Marksmanship and make another melee Hunter in its place if you find that Survival isn’t enough for you?
Ranged Survival had personality to it. You are placing a lot of arbitrary value in being melee while simultaneously downplaying being ranged as generic and soulless.
We already have a spec that focuses on pet companionship. We do not need a second one “but melee with a couple gadgets this time”.
Bestial Wrath and Kill Command are iconically Beast Master abilities, as is the Spirit Bond passive. I never asked for Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot as an SV Hunter for the same reason: they didn’t fit ranged SV, they were MM spells and that was that.
Again, this is stunningly self unaware given ranged Survival was ostensibly removed because it overlapped too much with MM.
Given SV’s participation in PVE endgame, nothing is needed less than a melee Hunter spec.
Learn to play the game. Stop blaming the spec. EZ enough.
Ive looked at the numbers for how many players set it it up. Something like 8% are taking Butchery from the one website I saw.
Stop trying to force the spec to play as ranged…it isnt.
I dont need to read crap. friend. I am playing it and seeing how fun it is and how it tops the DPS charts when PLAYED AS DESIGNED and taking the RIGHT talents for a MELEE spec, not trying to force it to be a ranged spec.
This tuning joke is just an excuse for players who try to force the spec to be ranged using Serpent Sting and Wildfire bomb as anything remotely beneficial so they can play it ranged instead of how its currently designed.
Take the Butchery talent…which should be in the spellbook instead…and the spec is just fine.
Both SUCK compared to Butchery which is the DPS bread and butter for the spec…Butchery and Raptor Strike should be being spammed if one is to do real damage with SV.
From what I hear that may be as far as comparing it to previous incarnations.
Right now its a MELEE spec, not ranged.
I get it,…you feel you lost something. I lost my Life Tap. I want it back and I wont play Afflock ever again unless its replaced.
But i AINT gonna sit around these forums crying about it day after day.
omg…
Its a HUNTER…with a HUNTER PET…YES…it SHOULD be USING that pet in the same way any other HUNTER would.
Tell ya what…you get them to replace my Life Tap…and I’ll work on getting them to give you back whatever it is youre complaining about with SV.
Course, I’ll stop playing SV if they do, but Im use to giving up good classes over Blizzards stupid decisions.
all three hunter specs can use a pet. “we dont need” ?
we dont NEED for WoW to exist in the first place.
Need?
Seriously?
Its a video GAME.
Need isnt an issue…what is FUN is the only thing that matters.
And playing survival is a flipping blast when its played as DESIGNED…a melee spec.
yeah…ok…so they wanted to mix things up and NOT have three boring ranged specs.
a hunter who DOESNT use his pet to attack.
Guess someone doesnt hunt much in real life either.
Some things pretty much ALL hunters do, friend. I am one.
Some fishermen use a pole…some fishermen use a big net and a boat.
Its ok for a spec to be ranged and one to be melee.
Its ok that they all use similar tools as well.
SV plays nothing like MM or BM when played correctly.
And THAT is what makes it very unique. and why Im enjoying it so much.
uh…then dont play it in that content?
you …uh…do know that …uh…you can swap specs before hitting the content, right?
I do it all the time. Solo in one spec…group content in another.
You can even macro it for a quick change.
ok…i will.
Seriously tired of reading your whining and excuses.
SV is fun and it plays fantastic and does plenty of DPS when played as designed.
Im allowed to have my opinion, sorry.
I dont play BM because yeah…its ‘braindead’ easy compared to some other specs. It gets pretty much the same defensive toolkit as SV but doesnt have to get INTO the fight. I find that boring.
Please.
Ranged gets to sit back from a distance literally being in little to no danger while melee is getting stomped, stunned, slept and polymorphed every 18 seconds.
Hate to break it to you, but Ive NEVER had anyone tell me to contribute more. My numbers are always just fine. And I know how to use my interrupts pretty well at this point.
I just prefer being in the mix rather than playing ranged and not having to worry about that up close and personal crap that happens.
Just personal preference and personal opinion. And Im allowed to have it.
Good. Its just that, a game. Unless you are pushing high keys and obsessed with world firsts, others shouldn’t care how you play. If 15% less damage at that level is really that upsetting to someone, you can find plenty of other people that are not morons to play with
When that player dug up the ONE Raid that was showing in my profile or something it was funny because it was from very early on when I had just started trying raiding. Not sure why it was only showing that one. I did a crap ton of LFR during legion on my main WoW account. Pretty much All of my LFR and PVP is on that account so it seems like digging up the rest should have been easy enough.
Hes railing on my DPS being 15% lower than it should be…then telling me I could get 15% more DPS by optimizing my gear.
I guess that means that play-wise, I was doing just about all the DPS I was literally capable of.
Irritating to me also that with these jokers you arent ALLOWED any opinion if youre not playing X content or have X results.
At first, I thought you’re new hunter that’s just expressing enjoyment for a spec but it’s overwhelming clear at this point the capability and credibility at hand.
Perhaps one day we may potentially be able to benefit from the insight of your future guides.
You seem to forget that over the years there have been a lot of melee hunters in the lore, hell whole of thunderlord orc clan were dedicated to hunting in melee, and that part of lore is older thab vanilla!
Also never once have I asked to remove rsv in favor of msv. I always wanted a melee hunter, but as 4th spec or a bm variation, but now that it happened, I most certainly not going to cry about it since I have to swap mains every couple xpacs anyway simply because my main would get screwed over
you gotta understand…I have NO interest in appealing to or impressing you. The spec is fine as it is. Needs some tweaking and for people to stop trying to pretend its the spec and not their own poor game play.
and no…Im NOT new to hunter. It was one of the first classes I played.
Im new to Survival…and loving every second of it and its clear capabilities.
And god knows that in REALITY entire cultures used SPEARS for hunting. I guess we’re oblivious to that historical fact as well.
It DOES fit the hunter theme, just like some fish with poles and some fish with big nets.
I fired up my BFA hunter…swapped to SV and set up talents.
Im not feeling too huge a different between lower level and when I have all my talents, quite honestly.
Played pretty much exactly what I was expecting.
Not sure what all the complaining about SV is by some.
What? Its not top DPS ?
Only one spec usually has that title at any given point.
Not that big a deal
The argument provided from the devs as to why they decided to remove RSV, was that it was too similar to MM.
How “it was MM but with different arrows, or traps”.
It’s both incredibly sad and ironic how it’s okay for 2 versions of pet-centric specs to both share several core abilities/features.
But in the past, 1 ranged spec was removed because it was just that. A ranged spec.
It wasn’t even removed because it shared abilities with that other ranged spec(MM). It was literally removed because apparently, 2 ranged specs that focused on the weapon itself(but in different ways), were too much.
But 2 pet-specs with the same pet-related abilities isn’t wrong?
…
This line here, is the best one you’ve written so far, IMO ofc.
You know why we’re still here talking about how we want RSV to return? No matter how anyone of us are advocating for it to do so.
Because that spec, and that playstyle, was our fun. It was just as fun for us, as MSV is to you now.
Stop being dismissive.
“Boring” is subjective. “Fun” is subjective as well.
probably was. Ive said a few times…why have three ranged specs?
They can make the two ranged specs better, and leave a melee spec for those of us who like it. Variety is a good thing.
ive already made my point on that 5 times or so…Im not rehashing it again.
yes…its fine if they all have pets to utilize. All three specs feel VERY different from each other right now…that also is a GOOD thing
and on that point I do really seriously sympathize with you all. I really, honestly do.
I LOVED soloing out in the world with Afflock before they removed Life Tap. That last split second decision to tap and die…or not tap and die…it made the spec really feel alive.
Now its just a cheap mage wannabe crap spec that I wont touch. Demlock is the last fun warlock spec for me.
That said…I never played SV before so I havent had any sense of loss over it.
To ME here and now I LOVE it far more than either ranged spec.
if they could give you all a fourth spec replacing the old SV while keeping mine as it is for the most part, Id love it.
You’re doing level 60 dungeons. If you’ve played WoW as much as you say you do, you should know that balance at level 60 is absolutely not comparable to balance at level 120.
If at 120 you tried to tank mobs or tried to not use Wildfire Bomb or Serpent Sting, your results would be very, very different.
