Look, maybe you're not a M+ player any more, and that's ok

I’ve been watching the discourse around M+ changes and class balance for the last, like, week or so, and maybe I just have a “further from the fire” perspective as someone who has observed, tried and confirmed that M+ was very much not for me and my friends, but there’s been a clear message, again just to my eyes in what’s happening in the war within.

I’ve mentioned this in another post that I’ll link below that WoW seems very much to be closing in on “we can’t control the PUG experience so either play with friends or solo” kind of approach with TWW. They won’t unlock cross factional LFDungeon in an effort to protect new players from faction-pilled vets, as a rare acknowledgement that “the community has cooked itself”, and now they’re going all in on follower dungeons, delves and story mode. There is, almost, no “excuse” to PUG except “ilvl number go up” and maybe a “gotta have it” M+ achievement mount. Those incentives though, more than ever, are really just lining up to tell players “just form a team.”

People aren’t liking how the new affixes are looking for the PUG scene and like… maybe it’s time to read between the lines on that.

From level 10 to level cap, to the great vault, to the big scene at the end of the raid, there is (or will be soon) a “one to five player” instanced PVE pipeline. For most players there is no need to look outside your own account or a small (Smaller than 5 even) group of friends unless you get sucked into “make the ilvl go up.” Heroics, blocked from LFD until TWW season 1, are “relevant” again, an intended part of the progression ladder, and every rung of the ladder has to be built as a potential stopping point. Delves, rewarding low to mid level M±equivalent gear, will serve those who in the past would sit in the decline/leaver/toxicity misery vortex that is M+PUGing.

It is ok, in this new reality, to look at delves and/or the occasional heroic dungeon queue as your ceiling. The thing about that ceiling is it’s insulated, for the most part, from the “transaction with the community’s overthinking” that is the decline vortex of M+ PUGing. Yes people can and will kick for dumb reasons in heroics, but if you queue with only two friends, that becomes impossible to happen to you, and if you don’t have those two friends, you have delves.

The truth, as I see it is: WoW has clearly caught on to the ubiquity never intended for “kEEEEys”. It was never meant to be a casual lane of the game. It’s their big Esport and clearly, to their thinking “you should have a team.” Not a group, a team. They support PUGing mechanically but “relevant” heroics and now delves are clearly being introduced as pressure valves for the “no one will take my class” conundrum that they will never apply the agility to fix. They’re making alts connected so when one class rises as the clear meta… “just go level one and play that then.” It’s all warband.

It is ok to look at the new options and remove yourself from the headache. I don’t know how much more plainly I can put it, but WoW aren’t obligated to just hand out keystone master to everyone every 6 months just because streamers run “kEEEys” with viewers.

Know your limit, play within it. The goalposts on past “limits” are moving, they’ve been moving since season 4 when no one not terminally online knows what which key numbers mean any more. It’ll sort itself out when delves drop, and you can be ahead of that curve.

This has been a PSA from a M+ outsider looking in. It’s so much more peaceful here on the side of the line that looks at M+ crashing into its changing definition and realizes “yep, the devs caught on.”

Maybe you’re not an M+ player any more, and that’s ok. Some of you would be so much happier if you could realize that.

This thread is kind of an extension of another ramble I went on.

Have a nice day. Please, save yourself some headache and think about where you fit in the devs’ vision. It’s their game and they’re clearly moving the goalposts. Have the agility that they won’t, and preserve your fun.

Just my opinion, just trying to help.

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Or they are just trying something different, potentially missing the mark, and will adjust if needed. That was a big wierd wall of text trying to convince people that they don’t actually like the things they like.

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A lot of paragraph to say something most people already knew. This game has always been about group play with people you know.

Pugging has always been an option but never been anything more than a donat your own risk kinda thing.

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A wall of complete nonsense.

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:man_shrugging:

I’ve gotten deeper into the content in DF as a pug player than I did in BfA with a guild. You definitely need a different mentality and to be able to live with the fact that not every run is going to go your way, but pugging isn’t the constant nightmare that a lot of people make it out to be.

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I’ve made a habit of scrolling down to see how many paragraphs I gotta read. This OP failed that test, although it did get bonus points for linking to another of your comments. That did give me a genuine chuckle.

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No, it’s so players aren’t forced into something they may not want. It’s not about new players. It’s about everyone.

But I still think that needs changed to allow for full groups that are cross faction to queue for Timewalking.

And yet low keys were a casual part of M+ from its inception until this past season.

And if Delves fail, I’ll once again be done with end game in roughly two or three weeks, because my key bracket was deleted.

I didn’t ask for “no timers.” I didn’t ask for “no affixes.” But thanks to the whiners, that’s what I’m relegated to now.

I don’t have a problem with ceilings. But my ceiling was 12s and 14s with my guild. Now, if I want to run 2s or 4s, I have to pug. And that was miserable when I ran some a few weeks into season 4. I won’t ever do it again.

So now my ceiling is 0s. No timers. No affixes. No new key level to strive for.

If Delves can replace that, fine. If not, guess I’m done when I hit 80. All thanks to the people who complained “bUt I dOn’T wAnT tImErS” crap.

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Funny story…

was grouped in a dungeon with 2 friends, one tank and one other DPS.
there was a DPS that kept posting damage meters after every damn kill, trash whatever and i often was the bottom of the DPS.
suddenly between bossses near the end of the run i get booted.
I asked my friends in discord “WTH? You guys kicked me?”
they said they thought they were kicking mr Damage meters.
lol

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I’m not saying it’s not possible but it’s typically not the norm. You could have also been in a poorly organized guild.

Agreed. What I meant was that the game has always been designed to favor group play in organized groups first and pugs last.

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People asked for keys with no timer and a Que. blizzard gave it to them.

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This. As someone who strictly pugs, im weathered in the ways of failed runs for so many various different reasons, that i dont get huffy over what most people complain about concerning m+

Given that, ive rarely ever experienced the nightmare and toxicity that people claim is created by m+

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Im seriously starting to consider people making things up as a way to cope.

It’s easier to say that people are toxic which is why you aren’t successful versus people admitting they are making mistakes.

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Honestly, I’m at the point where if anyone unironically uses the word “toxic”, I just write them off as a bad player.

Guess that makes me toxic :joy:

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Super toxic.

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Do people put this much thought into running mythic plus…?

I just make group insert key and go. I stop when the portals unlock.

Edit: The new affixes do suck though lets not overlook that.

Just curious on grouping part - you could group with your guild for 12’s and 14’s, but you can’t group with your guild for 2’s and 4’s?

I push keys pretty hard, but I have a lot of casual guildies who would kick and scream about our M+8 requirement for heroic raid to try to help people reach good ilvl earlier in the season.

Now that m0’s don’t have timers and exceed the old “+8” and can’t really be depleted because of misplay, they might feel a lot less self conscious about dungeons.

I kinda get this… not a lot of people wanna run low keys unless its a whole group of alts.

I figured out Mythic+ wasn’t for me back when it was introduced in Legion.

Then Blizz seemed to reorient their ENTIRE game structure and overarching game design around that weekly chest and some other similarly-structured weekly activities. It seemed to be about trying to keep players too busy chasing stuff so they didn’t realize they were on a rickety treadmill that was barely holding itself together.

And of course, being the one who refused to get on the treadmill in the first place, could see what it was all along… no wonder I got pissed off at the game not long after.

It’s fine that Mythic+ is not for everyone… it’s a shame that Blizz themselves didn’t realize it for the longest time. Let’s see if they’ll learn that there’s still a fundamental disconnect for many players. Namely…

Why must everything boil down to some form of gear progression?

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The most “toxic” thing I’ve experienced all season was when the healer died and questioned why I was kiting the frog boss in HoI from one end to the other in caps telling me that the boss is supposed to eat the frogs. Well, yeah that’s why I’m going end to end so the frogs run through the boss when it’s time for him to eat.

GD definitely hyperbolizes how “toxic” it is or they are doing/saying something and leaving that part out.

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Wonder if thats part of the issue. I have no problems owning up to my mistakes. I over pull or mismanage my defensives ill let the group know the wipe was on me.

Never had anyone come at me for it.

/shrug

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