Locking stable flying but not skyriding to pathfinder is stupid

[Kiyoko-ravenholdt]

@Deunan-atiesh

Their track record of removing it at X point in each expansion it’s been part of says a lot as well.

After? I mean, I guess that is arguably a point in an expansion if you squint hard enough.

[Kaledin-uther]

@Deunan-atiesh

If steady flight is removed wholesale that will probably end my flying days as I legit cannot use it effectively even with the motion sickness toggles turned on. Obv wont quit WoW over it but it’ll be a bummer.

I think there are two options on this. One, Blizzard could just allow both at the same time. Two, they could work on making the new flying work for people with disabilities/motion sickness.

I personally hope they go with two as I think it gives them more freedom of design. I don’t see anything wrong with one, but I personally like that they are slowly rolling on changes here instead of going whole hog swapping it out. They went to a much faster flying swap and I hope they don’t get rid of old flying all together ever, just find the right balance.

It’s a hard thing because it was steady flying before and things have changed, but some types of games people just can’t play. I hope they find a way to be inclusive and have design control.

[Quivermethis-rexxar]

@Deunan-atiesh

As does the lower barrier to entry for TWW pathfinder, I would not be surprised to see it go the way of the dinosaur next expansion.

We shall see. I can’t see it being removed until next xpac prepatch though. Especially with how trivial this one is.

@Deunan-atiesh

Their track record of removing it at X point in each expansion it’s been part of says a lot as well

Eh not really. They only remove it after an xpac or two when its not longer relevant content. And thats a change they just started recently.

[Catelan-aerie-peak (Catelan)]

@Kaledin-uther

I think there are two options on this. One, Blizzard could just allow both at the same time. Two, they could work on making the new flying work for people with disabilities/motion sickness.

I personally hope they go with two as I think it gives them more freedom of design. I don’t see anything wrong with one, but I personally like that they are slowly rolling on changes here instead of going whole hog swapping it out. They went to a much faster flying swap and I hope they don’t get rid of old flying all together ever, just find the right balance.

It’s a hard thing because it was steady flying before and things have changed, but some types of games people just can’t play. I hope they find a way to be inclusive and have design control.

What I cannot understand is that we currently have BOTH forms of flight in the game. We also know that some players cannot tolerate one of the 2 flight forms. So, since it’s obvious that development CAN support both kind of flight, why remove (or gate) either one?

I would REALLY love to see an official explanation from Blizzard, and personally I think that WE the customers deserve at least that much.

[Aeshma-khadgar]

You are totally right. It’s what Blizzard wants.

[Deunan-atiesh]

@Kiyoko-ravenholdt

After? I mean, I guess that is arguably a point in an expansion if you squint hard enough.

If you have nothing of value to add there is no reason to reply.

@Kaledin-uther

One, Blizzard could just allow both at the same time. Two, they could work on making the new flying work for people with disabilities/motion sickness.

One of the options is infinitely easier to implement, plus I am pretty sure that the motion sickness stuff works for most people, I am likely an outlier in that case. In regard to other disabilities I am unsure how they could change dragon riding without removing what others enjoy about it.

@Quivermethis-rexxar

We shall see. I can’t see it being removed until next xpac prepatch though. Especially with how trivial this one is.

The trivial nature of it is what makes me think it might be easier to ditch it halfway through TWW. Either way I am likely hoofing it so to speak for now.

@Quivermethis-rexxar

And thats a change they just started recently.

Fair, to me though it shows the possibility of pathfinder being continued past this easier one to just be a mount reward and not tied to a form of flying.
Essentially being hopeful that I wont be confined to walking/ground transport moving forward outside of occasionally RP taxi’s. Wish the modes of flying were more equitable in access, but I don’t make the game and I don’t plan to quit so I do what I am allowed to or presented with.

[Kaledin-uther]

@Catelan-aerie-peak

What I cannot understand is that we currently have BOTH forms of flight in the game. We also know that some players cannot tolerate one of the 2 flight forms. So, since it’s obvious that development CAN support both kind of flight, why remove (or gate) either one?

I would REALLY love to see an official explanation from Blizzard, and personally I think that WE the customers deserve at least that much.

That is not a fair comparison. We currently have stable flight added after the entire completion of the expansion and then a bunch of achievements. They are moving to the same thing without the achievements.

To be fair, that is in fact moving closer to full both rather than away from it. So that’s just not a fair way to put it if you are really comparing the two.

Blizzard is saying they designed the first run through/campaign to be done without steady flying. That they open it at the end…sooner and easier than before. That is basically the same as what we currently have.

@Deunan-atiesh

One of the options is infinitely easier to implement, plus I am pretty sure that the motion sickness stuff works for most people, I am likely an outlier in that case. In regard to other disabilities I am unsure how they could change dragon riding without removing what others enjoy about it.

Sure but also not the end goal, and they will still work on the second one anyway. So from their stand point if you have to try to get the second one to work for everyone and that is the goal…the first one is just EXTRA work…and it closes off a ton of options for design goals.

I think right now the easiest fix is to just remove the cast time on flight type change. That is the absolute easiest fix they can put in place…the rest is a more complicated question of long term goals and how those goals will work for players.

[Catelan-aerie-peak (Catelan)]

@Kaledin-uther

That is not a fair comparison. We currently have stable flight added after the entire completion of the expansion and then a bunch of achievements. They are moving to the same thing without the achievements.

All I’m talking about is that we currently have BOTH forms of flight in the game so we know its technically possible for there to be both forms of flight available to players on day one of the expansion. Nothing new needs to be done because it already exists. Another pathfinder to gate Steady Flight is not necessary.

I mean, right now - as I’m typing - I can fly my mounts using BOTH forms of flight even in all the old zones. So, how hard can it be for them to just flip the switch and let us all fly the way we want in the new expansions? That fact makes another Pathfinder for Steady Flight look like they’re being petty and spiteful - a deliberate snub to players who need to use Steady Flight.

[Kaledin-uther]

@Catelan-aerie-peak

All I’m talking about is that we currently have BOTH forms of flight in the game so we know its technically possible for there to be both forms of flight available to players on day one of the expansion. Nothing new needs to be done because it already exists. Another pathfinder to gate Stead Flight is not necessary.

It has never been a question about technical issues. It’s a design decision. Just like locking flying till the end has always been.

You may as well say it’s possible for everyone to start at max level and get full gear without doing anything. That is true…but against the design of the game.

@Catelan-aerie-peak

That fact makes another Pathfinder for Steady Flight look like they’re being petty and spiteful - a deliberate snub to players who need to use Steady Flight.

Or…they have a design mentality and feel that they are meeting you half way on the decision as they have removed things you need to do to get there.

Sorry but when you go this idea that they are doing it to hurt people who can’t use the new flying to be spiteful you really lose to me. That is just not a fair assessment. It feels manipulative.

[Deunan-atiesh]

@Kaledin-uther

the first one is just EXTRA work…

I don’t agree. The first option of either making both locked for pathfinder or just allowing steady flight at launch is not nearly as much work as I would think redesigning dynamic flight to be more accommodating would be.

One is just a toggle the other is more development time on a finished system.

@Kaledin-uther

I think right now the easiest fix is to just remove the cast time on flight type change.

This is not related to what I believed we were discussing, the toggle for flight type is really not important when I wont be using flying in general in TWW and will have them all toggled to steady elsewhere.

[Illaandra-gilneas (Illaandra)]

@Emanu-dalaran

The difference being that they are both different with different advantages. Flight is there in one form and will also be in another after cap and with the acheivement.

Correct, there’s just no noteworthy reason I’ve seen from Blizzard as to why one is still restricted while the other is available from the start.

@Emanu-dalaran

Same here. We do it, or we aren’t flying with regular flight.

There’s a critical difference between “do Pathfinder or no flight” and “do Pathfinder or no regular flight, but the other flight mode is available from the start”.

@Emanu-dalaran

And to add…it was available from the get go in DF as well. We still had to wait for regular flight.

I wasn’t surprised that their new shiny flight mode was available from the start in Dragonflight. What’s surprising me is how much they’ve pushed it over regular flight going past Dragonflight.

[Kaledin-uther]

@Deunan-atiesh

I don’t agree. The first option of either making both locked for pathfinder or just allowing steady flight at launch is not nearly as much work as I would think redesigning dynamic flight to be more accommodating would be.

One is just a toggle the other is more development time on a finished system.

I don’t think you understood what I was saying. If they make it that you can steady flight from the get go…they are still going to continue working to make it so people with disabilities can eventually use dragonflight. They are going to do that regardless of the steady flight issue, so anything for steady flight is just extra.

@Deunan-atiesh

This is not related to what I believed we were discussing, the toggle for flight type is really not important when I wont be using flying in general in TWW and will have them all toggled to steady elsewhere.

For you, sure. That doesn’t mean there are not a ton of people who want both at different times for other reasons. You will get steady flight later, so it’s not the end of the world…and if you played through dragonflight you managed it just fine and they made it much easier this time in both time and gameplay.

[Kaledin-uther]

@Illaandra-gilneas

There’s a critical difference between “do Pathfinder or no flight” and “do Pathfinder or no regular flight, but the other flight mode is available from the start”.

but “do pathfinder or no regular flight, but the other flight mode is available from the start” is the only way we have ever had it when there has been two flight modes.

[Illaandra-gilneas (Illaandra)]

@Kaledin-uther

but “do pathfinder or no regular flight, but the other flight mode is available from the start” is the only way we have ever had it when there has been two flight modes

We’ve had it that way for exactly one expansion, and that was the expansion in which this new flight mode was released/showcased.

TWW would be a perfect time to make both available from the start, but here we are I guess.

Surely you get what I’m saying?

[Quivermethis-rexxar]

@Deunan-atiesh

Fair, to me though it shows the possibility of pathfinder being continued past this easier one to just be a mount reward and not tied to a form of flying

Yea I can easily see this too.
I’d prefer it as well, but I’m also a sucker for a +1 mount too lol.

@Deunan-atiesh

Essentially being hopeful that I wont be confined to walking/ground transport moving forward outside of occasionally RP taxi’s.

No one wants that either.

@Deunan-atiesh

Wish the modes of flying were more equitable in access, but I don’t make the game and I don’t plan to quit so I do what I am allowed to or presented with.

I appreciate the honesty and realistic perspective.
Its fun to be a realist and a glass half full kind of person lol.

[Kaledin-uther]

@Illaandra-gilneas

We’ve had it that way for exactly one expansion, and that was the expansion in which this new flight mode was released/showcased.

TWW would be a perfect time to make both available from the start, but here we are I guess.

Surely you get what I’m saying?

I am fine with the debate over how it should be but trying to say it is different than what we just had…and framing it like it is worse is disingenous.

They actually made it earlier and easier to get both flying modes by a full year of waiting for patches and the removal of pathfinder. It is a big step towards making it more open, while they add new ways to make dynamic flight less troublesome for people with issues.

I get that you feel they should do more, but they did do something and it should be acknowledged in the debate especially with people straight vilifying Blizzard for it. It’s a design decision not a personal slight against people with motion sickness or disabilities that make twitch gameplay harder.

[Deunan-atiesh]

@Kaledin-uther

I don’t think you understood what I was saying.

Based my answer off you word for word on two opposite options, not the two combined options you are presenting it as now.

@Kaledin-uther

I think there are two options on this. One, Blizzard could just allow both at the same time. Two, they could work on making the new flying work for people with disabilities/motion sickness.

@Kaledin-uther

and if you played through dragonflight you managed it just fine.

See, I didn’t. I rode my ground mount or used the insanely rare help of a ride along service. I had to have a friend help me unlock dragon riding on launch.
“Managing” a non-accessible system while a more accessible one is available, but unnecessarily gated, is not conducive to me playing often or regularly and is not even basic level equity for players.

I can say you will manage just fine with a 5 second toggle and receive the same response back.

@Quivermethis-rexxar

I’d prefer it as well, but I’m also a sucker for a +1 mount too lol.

I wish I was able to successfully use dragon riding, I like going fast lmao. I just can’t with the motion sickness and my other body issues, heck even with steady I have issues but I’m able to stop mid air and take a second to reconnoiter and get back on track.

@Quivermethis-rexxar

No one wants that either.

I will eventually get the pathfinder for steady, it just feels like an unnecessary roadblock. I get pushing new thing though as I work in sales.

@Quivermethis-rexxar

I appreciate the honesty and realistic perspective.
Its fun to be a realist and a glass half full kind of person lol.

15 year old me would hate current me lmao. However the perspective does keep me grounded more often than not.

[Illaandra-gilneas (Illaandra)]

@Kaledin-uther

I am fine with the debate over how it should be but trying to say it is different than what we just had

@Illaandra-gilneas

There’s a critical difference between “do Pathfinder or no flight” and “do Pathfinder or no regular flight, but the other flight mode is available from the start”.

Where did I frame it as being anything but that?

@Kaledin-uther

I get that you feel they should do more, but they did do something and it should be acknowledged in the debate

It’s still being unnecessarily gated. To my knowledge it still doesn’t work in the Dawnbreaker dungeon or the fight inside of that dungeon that utilizes flight.

Not really interested in you telling me to acknowledge a low effort move from Blizzard when it would require almost no further effort to simply flip the switch at the start and allow Static Flight at the beginning + inside of the Dawnbreaker.

@Kaledin-uther

It’s a design decision

That’s great and all, but pushback and comments on design decisions are how things get changed.

[Kaledin-uther]

Sorry but go reread my first post. As I said

@Kaledin-uther

Sure but also not the end goal, and they will still work on the second one anyway.

ie no matter what they do with steady flying availability they are still going to work on the accessibility of dynamic flying so it is always just extra.

@Deunan-atiesh

See, I didn’t. I rode my ground mount or used the insanely rare help of a ride along service. I had to have a friend help me unlock dragon riding on launch.
“Managing” a non-accessible system while a more accessible one is available, but unnecessarily gated, is not conducive to me playing often or regularly and is not even basic level equity for players.

Yeah man that is what managing is. Now you won’t have to do that for a full year after reaching the end of the game and then do an achievement challeng. So it is better. Also, they have added more accesibility features to dynamic flight to help so it should be easier.

@Deunan-atiesh

but unnecessarily gated, is not conducive to me playing often or regularly and is not even basic level equity for players.

I get that, but “unnecessarily gated” is actually design decision just like every other thing you have to do in this game to get something. So you think it is unnecessary and they think it is good for the game. I don’t think they are being unresponsive here and in fact have made it quite a bit easier to get there while also working on the issue of the new flying being hard for some.

@Deunan-atiesh

I can say you will manage just fine with a 5 second toggle and receive the same response back.

You are right, and I will. The main difference is you are asking for them to give you something. I am asking for them not to take something away. I prefer full set every mount to what I want, but if I get instant cast instead of 5 seconds on every flight type change…I would be happy. As it would be the same as what we just had.

[Kaledin-uther]

Never mind I will move on.