Locking stable flying but not skyriding to pathfinder is stupid

[Derkz-westfall]

That amounts to RPing as a game dev, I don’t accept that nonsense. That’s where Pathfinder came from. The guy sitting next to the Dev explaining their 8mo old philosophy, can elaborate on that one.

Their answer? 'We want Skyriding to be the one you use because it takes time to master, it is cooler when flying around/experiencing the world, and there is more active gameplay with ‘skyriding.’

‘Well, that’s just like your opinion, man.’

Basically the same sort of garbage I can glean from a lot of posts here. Poorly thought out drivel, completely serving some internal design fantasy where the ‘world feels active and alive’ for the 3 days people will be zerging the questing zones.

It’s the same nonsense Pathfinder was born from. Incongruent with game design that could have a meaningful impact on players via: offering a second choice to quest with.

So what if you think it’s less active, takes players out of the world, and trivializes content. That’s a hot take from someone being inconsiderate of players who might not be able to engage in the activity you want them to play in.

Reminder: it’s not only people who have a disability who can get motion sick. If I am choosing between questing through the 70-80 zone with a motion sick mount, or logging off to go do an activity that doesn’t make me motion sick, including playing another MMO that has Steady Flight inbuilt, with no forced direction for Blizzard’s garbage participation metrics:

Probably going to go pick a better use of my time. Their entire argument for having it this way ignores the side effect of how dragonriding was designed. In your quest to add something realistic to the game, you never stopped to consider the side effects players may feel.

Because if you had… there is an easy option within grasp to help give those players a way to experience the content in an impactful way to them rather than trying to live out the impact you desire for them. There’s a difference. This is why I don’t buy the RP BS. It’s BS. You’re a game designer. If you’re going to sit here and spend the sheer number of resources you factually do to remake your game every 2 years, resetting everyone, invalidating old content, ultimately creating largely disposable content, I am going to call you out on that sort of rhetoric when it doesn’t even remain consistent with your ongoing development actions.

Actions always speak loudest.

[Quivermethis-rexxar]

@Derkz-westfall

That amounts to RPing as a game dev, I don’t accept that nonsense. That’s where Pathfinder came from. The guy sitting next to the Dev explaining their 8mo old philosophy, can elaborate on that one.

And?
Its their game. Their story to tell how they please.
You can choose to accept it or not, but that’s directly from the source.

So irrefutable facts directly from blizzard as to why they chose to do it that way.

So you can disagree, but you can’t feign ignorance and say “we don’t know why” or “can’t know why” when we have the video of the why.

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

@Aeshma-khadgar

Just one mistake you are laying out here. You can’t know how a person’s disability affects their game play. Just because someone can’t manage skyriding doesn’t mean they can’t enjoy whatever gameplay they endeavor.

I gree PF is likely here to stay in TWW. But people should be allowed to argue against it if they choose. A thing is only inevitable until it’s not.

Yes each person handles things differently because each person’s situation is unique.

I know some people that play the game that are legally blind and have no issues and then there is a former guildie of mine that used to struggle to play the game when they are legally blind.

So it is a wide spectrum and not good to assume what people can and can not do. Rather it is easier and natural to widen the scope so to make it as easy as possible for these players or even new and returning players that are not seasoned veterans of WoW.

This is probably the biggest gripe I have with inconsistent game design like Patchfinder and many other things. It hurts new players the most to give them TBC normal flying in old zones and then to yank it. Similar thing happened in systemlands when they made BFA the default leveling for new players.

New players were forced to level through BFA but would notice they could use TBC normal flying in other zones. And then they were able to magically use TBC normal flying in systemlands zones but they had to go back to earn PF to unlock in BFA when they outleveled BFA in the first place.

That is why this inconsistent design with how DR and TBC normal flying are behind handled has morphed into multi pronged issues that continue to grow.

[Derkz-westfall]

@Quivermethis-rexxar

Here you go. Interview with ion and another member of the team.
https://youtu.be/f8zWAPDUTkc

Yeah I watched it. It’s a nonsensical answer. One I wholly disagree with, considering the context of their actual design methodology: We do what we feel like, we justify what ships.

If it’s a bad choice and too late to fix it without significant impact on their bottom line? RP some answer that sounds competent. Stans love that!

@Quivermethis-rexxar

And?
Its their game. Their story to tell how they please.
You can choose to accept it or not, but that’s directly from the source.

Right. I have to remind you: This is a video game. The devs have to sell a product, and the players have to be willing to buy it. No matter what, if they do not like what they play?

Refunds. Unsubs. Not the kind of ‘healthy bottom line’ behavior that Blizzard is looking for. Promise.

One side you have devs with fantasies. Other side you have players with limited patience and willingness to buy your BS after 20 years.

Somewhere in the middle, is the design space that will get players to grow Wow to a place of steady concurrents. But this design space, where the devs fantasize about their vision for ‘no flying’ while adding a feature that ‘takes skill’ is just… yeah no. That’s not the game I am going to buy.

I’ll play it for free in a year or two, when it’s rolled into the base game. Cuz that’s all it’s worth, anyway.

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

BlizZard has changed the requirements many times of PFs before launch dates so this notion that it can not be changed or removed has been debunked, many, many times.

That is why I remind the Rogue community that feedback is important as always because it is about that level of consistency and standard that is met that truly shines n the end.

It can not be replicated or tried to be turned into something else entirely. For what we know for sure is that consistent feedback is always taken into consideration whether it is now, first patch, last patch or next expansion.

That is why player feedback wins when it is consistent and on point with the message.

[Quivermethis-rexxar]

@Derkz-westfall

Yeah I watched it. It’s a nonsensical answer. One I wholly disagree with, considering the context of their actual design methodology: We do what we feel like, we justify what ships.

Nonsensical to YOU.
Thats the thing. You can argue about what ships or not. What the players want or not. But they wouldn’t go with it if it didn’t sell.

They are sticking to their guns, which means they must be doing something right since they would have seen the impact via prepurchase sales.

And again. This goes back to lack of feedback and complaints.
If it was that big of a deal. You’d see more outcry calling for change.
We’ve seen it a number of times when the majority isn’t happy. They make a ruckus and blizzard makes the change. Quite quickly I might add.

So tl;dr. It may not be what you want, but its what they want and what the majority wants.

[Estalayia-borean-tundra]

@Derkz-westfall

My experience in the medical field… you support people who need support, you don’t judge, you don’t ask questions.

I’m not in the “medical field”, therefore I don’t need to abide by any “medical field” policies.

@Derkz-westfall

There is absolutely nothing to be lost from changing this, for the majority of people arguing against. And people I don’t know personally, on the internet, who deserve to be taken at face value, could benefit from this tiny thing being changed.

I’m not for nor against a change in this thread. I’m just merely pointing out I don’t always believe people at face value. What you’re implying by arguing with me is that everybody is honest and doesn’t lie about what they have.

@Derkz-westfall

Me too. I chose to work in the field I am in because helping people is more important than being correct or dying on a hill over something small, when the entire game has been remade 10 times at this point

I’m not in a “medical field”, like I told you. I do volunteer work helping people in ANY aspect in life. I don’t get paid to do any of this.

@Derkz-westfall

Even locking Skyriding in TWW behind Pathfinder, makes more sense than doing nothing.

I’m not for nor against a change in this thread.

I just take issue with people telling others (especially those NOT in the “medical field”) to just blindly believe people. That is TERRIBLE advice.

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

The design philosophy of evoking skill or more engagement is a slippery slope as we saw with WoD.

That is what was argued back then when garrisons mission tables were considered more engaging than doing quests out in the world for epic gear.

Or, even a step further arguing that it is more engaging to have no flying forever to tackle content on the ground.

This idea that skill should be measured based on engagement is full of folly.

Look no further than Rogues where there is a lot of skill and engagement to do rotations in PVE and PVP. But it is one of the least played classes in WoW.

And yet is it fun? If Rogue was fun to a greater majority of players then more people would play.

Skill and engagement argument tends to be more subjective than objective because I can argue subjectively how engaging a Rogue is to play. But objectively speaking Monks, Rets, Warlocks, DKs, etc have advance versions of Rogue management of resources for the modern retail game.

That is why attaching a skill component to DR is a slippery slope for it invites into the discussion the 5 second toggle to switch between DR and TBC normal flying. And to further justify nerfs to DR in the future.

That is why TBC normal flying is well balanced for the game in that it is not too fast like portals, flight whistles, or even DR. But it is not as slow as going on the ground.

This is why attaching skill argument to travel options has caused a massive rift between devs and community.

When they do that it shows they do not look at the unchanged meta in M+ god comp that lasted the entirety of DF but pay attention to areas where skill does not matter IMVHO aka traveling from A to B.

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

@Quivermethis-rexxar

So tl;dr. It may not be what you want, but its what they want and what the majority wants.

I’d just add “or is indifferent to” to this, as, since it is the forums, the true majority of players are likely either playing the game as is or quitting without pomp and circumstance., which no one but Blizzard can see.

[Derkz-westfall]

@Quivermethis-rexxar

Nonsensical to YOU.
Thats the thing. You can argue about what ships or not. What the players want or not. But they wouldn’t go with it if it didn’t sell.

Nonsensical to me, nonsensical to other players here, nonsensical to consistent game design philosophy. I hate to break it to you, but after playing this game for 20 years, I can write a dissertation on any point you want to make, come up with a far better argument than Blizzard can.

It would be one thing for the guy to say ‘we don’t want to add flying. We are willing to compromise with players and give it to them after they’ve worked for it, and we want that to remain consistent, even after giving them a faster, better flying feature that 90% of people will use over steady flight, anyway.’

That’s called ‘honesty’ amounts to the same answer as they RP walked in that interview. I can have respect for honesty. I can’t have respect for someone who crafts an answer from their butt to avoid player backlash.

Why would players… backlash… if your design philosophy… was sound?

After 20 years of playing this game, some of us would do a much better job than any of these guys. That’s the frustrating part.

Just do a better job. Be honest. Or, I don’t do business.

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

I’m not in the “medical field”, therefore I don’t need to abide by any “medical field” policies.

It’s not a medical policy. It’s how to treat someone with basic dignity and respect. You don’t need to buy into any crazy belief to acknowledge someone on the internet, claims to be disabled. It’s one of those ‘face-value’ claims, where you simply can’t validate or invalidate the claim without some level of investigation, which you probably aren’t going to do in the span of posting a comment.

It’s just a matter of… believe the person, move on. If you want the person to disclose their medical history to you, so you can feel comfortable believing they might be disabled… so Blizzard can be justified in making a change to the game?

That’s a lot of hoops to go through to support someone.

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

What you’re implying by arguing with me is that everybody is honest and doesn’t lie about what they have.

If you catch someone in a lie, by all means, call them out. Believing people are liars, because they are posting about something on the internet, I mean, that’s a great way to avoid getting scammed, but I don’t think anyone is after your money or stuff, in this case.

It’s just low value buy in, not really gonna move the needle for anyone if they suddenly don’t have a disability.

/shrug.

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

@Derkz-westfall

Right. I have to remind you: This is a video game. The devs have to sell a product, and the players have to be willing to buy it. No matter what, if they do not like what they play?

Refunds. Unsubs. Not the kind of ‘healthy bottom line’ behavior that Blizzard is looking for. Promise.

One side you have devs with fantasies. Other side you have players with limited patience and willingness to buy your BS after 20 years.

Somewhere in the middle, is the design space that will get players to grow Wow to a place of steady concurrents. But this design space, where the devs fantasize about their vision for ‘no flying’ while adding a feature that ‘takes skill’ is just… yeah no. That’s not the game I am going to buy.

I’ll play it for free in a year or two, when it’s rolled into the base game. Cuz that’s all it’s worth, anyway.

The current business model is upfront box sales which is why they moved up PF to the start of the expansion instead of mid or near the end.

But we also know that if they want to max box sales that leaving in PF for to unlock TBC normal flying is a dangerous game to play.

They flirted with that idea many times and were burned.

But I have said before sticking their guns like covenants cost them badly in systemlands in terms of sub like the no flying forever decisions in WoD.

That is why the easy win with flexibility is right there versus going the harder path that has little fruits of reward.

[Kaledin-uther]

@Lovelight-sargeras

This is what I’ve been trying to get at in these threads. They’re making it out like the game is impossible to play unless they can steady fly while leveling, but somehow people have been able to play the game for 20 years without these issues.

Somehow, the game became “unplayable” only during the leveling campaign for TWW. A very spurious circumstance indeed.

Well…every zone until dragonflight was designed for ground mounts, and then they added flying. Now they are designed for dynamic flight and then you get steady flight. Saying they could play everything before dragonflight means they should be fine is really apples to oranges.

At this point I think the argument should be about wether the number of people who would benefit, legitametly from steady flight outweighs the idea of the first play through difference in gameplay that Blizzard highlighted.

It seems like freeing it up wouldn’t do that much. So I feel like the best answer for everyone is to open it up, but lock faster steadyflight behind the campaign. Small move to get everyone most of what they want.

[Lovelight-sargeras (Lovelight)]

@Derkz-westfall

Right. I have to remind you: This is a video game. The devs have to sell a product, and the players have to be willing to buy it. No matter what, if they do not like what they play?

Refunds. Unsubs. Not the kind of ‘healthy bottom line’ behavior that Blizzard is looking for. Promise.

For 10 years they have been selling this product where you couldn’t fly at all until the x.2 patch was made available nearly a year after release. Now? You can steady fly day 1, assuming completion of the leveling campaign.

Why is this all of a sudden going to cause massive subscription losses, when it is an objective improvement to not have to wait nearly 1 year to steady fly?

Remember, that players literally asked Blizzard to not force them to wait for “patchfinder”. Now that they have what they asked for, it’s all of a sudden “Refunds. Unsubs.”?

Blizzard sees through all this hyperbole, you know.

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

@Derkz-westfall

Why would players… backlash… if your design philosophy… was sound?

Because this is the WoW player base, even if something is rock solid sound, someone will likely find something to complain about. Maybe the Europe or Asian division is better at customer service/communication, but it, to put it bluntly, sucks here in the US where Blizzard is based.

[Derkz-westfall]

@Lovelight-sargeras

For 10 years they have been selling this product where you couldn’t fly at all until the x.2 patch was made available nearly a year after release. Now? You can steady fly day 1, assuming completion of the leveling campaign.

Why is this all of a sudden going to cause massive subscription losses, when it is an objective improvement to not have to wait nearly 1 year to steady fly?

Remember, that players literally asked Blizzard to not force them to wait for “patchfinder”. Now that they have what they asked for, it’s all of a sudden “Refunds. Unsubs.”?

Blizzard sees through all this hyperbole, you know.

I wish it were hyperbole? People have unsubbed and asked for refunds before? Blizzard has actually reversed course because players disagreed loud enough. I can list a couple of them, if you want? Real ID? Pathfinder?

I dunno about you, but we have flying in the game still, post WoD. I also don’t see your real name on the forums, next to your comment.

So I mean… what do you expect?

[Lovelight-sargeras (Lovelight)]

@Derkz-westfall

I can list a couple of them, if you want? Real ID? Pathfinder?

Yes, that was 10 years ago, and now they removed the pathfinder time gate for TWW, but somehow you are still threatening refunds and unsubs. Come on man.

[Kaledin-uther]

@Derkz-westfall

I wish it were hyperbole? People have unsubbed and asked for refunds before? Blizzard has actually reversed course because players disagreed loud enough. I can list a couple of them, if you want? Real ID? Pathfinder?

I dunno about you, but we have flying in the game still, post WoD. I also don’t see your real name on the forums, next to your comment.

So I mean… what do you expect?

While I have no idea the number of these things I would put forward a counter idea to just highlight something.

Would steadyflight being auto from the start cause anyone to quit?
I would say that is almost a 0% on that one topic. Haven’t seen anyone say “if you unlock steadflight from the get go I am outta here”!

Is locking it possible to cause a disabled person to quit?
I don’t think that many, but I could see a rage quit or two, or at least a lot of frustration while playing. So let’s say out of the disabled people you get a 5% loss. Not much but something.

So on that basis…doesn’t it make more sense for Blizzard to just open this up if we are talking straight business sense? Then people who find dyanamic flying fun get it, and people who like steady flight get it, and the only change is wether they get it before or after the campaign.

I get it’s a design decision and why they went there, but arguing nobody will quit if it isn’t opened up has to be balanced against the other side if we are actually talking about which way would be better.

So honestly, which way do you think would cause more consternation? Which would piss off players MORE? Even if just a tiny bit?

edit: sorry wanted this to be a general reply but think I sent it to you Derkz, it was not meant as something directly at you.

[Lovelight-sargeras (Lovelight)]

Nobody is quitting over this. If people played the last few expansions, where they had to wait nearly a year to fly, they’re not going to quit over being able to unlock flying day 1, upon completion of the campaign. 8-10 hours. Come on guys, lets be realistic.

[Kaledin-uther]

I ask again. Which do you think would piss off more players?

1. Allow steady and dynamic flight from the get go.
2. Lock steady flight behind the campaign.

All the rest seems to be filled with hyperbole and people taking pot shots at each other. Not sure why. This is the real crux of the issue here.

Sorry edited I pulled a Clue, is there anyone else in the house, there.

[Derkz-westfall]

I am not threatening. Players will vote with wallets, they always do. That’s why we call it that.

Let Me Be Clear:

1. Blizzard asked us to ‘Come Home.’ Blizzard promises evergreen treats and respect for my time.

2. There was a clear period of time, when 3-5x as many people were willing to stay subbed, month to month, concurrently. That should probably be considered.

3. The point they stopped reporting numbers, numbers which correlated with the release of content under a paradigm shifting set of philosophies, clearly indicates WHY they stopped posting them.

So while I agree that there are players who will gladly buy TWW and play the hell out of it: those players are not likely to be the ones impacted by this design choice. Those players aren’t likely to be impacted by anything Blizzard does.

This does not mean change is not warranted. Does not mean better design philosophies shouldn’t be considered. Doesn’t not mean Blizzard is correct. Certainly doesn’t mean they should just continue to haphazardly redesign this game every 2 years and then expect anyone to continue paying them to play it.

Can think of a dozen similar free games that actually do a better job of respecting players time and staying evergreen. Can also think of other games where the seasonal theme and resets make sense… because they don’t affect player progress.

I don’t have to grind anything, ever. Just hop in, play, have fun, and this is what Blizzard is competing against, 24/7. something like 350 million people playing Fortnite at it’s peak.

Wow peaked at 15m? Something tells me Blizzard needs to go back to the drawing board.