As many have pointed out, it may be a way to push current outdoor content.
Hey new player! want decent gear? well dont bother with that LFR nonsence, youʻll just lose on rolls and have to pay through the nose with your limited gold.
Instead, play our awesome outdoor content!! No grouping required! Heroic level loot just falling into your lap! And with our awesome 10million types of currency plan, you can buy the specific item you want rather than hope the RNG gods donʻt give you another belt. Start today!
Won a helm in LFR today, got three appearances out of it. I don’t feel bad about winning it even though I already have a 489 helm. I was there participating in the encounter, so I’m just as entitled to the drop as the person who whispered me immediately after I won it. One less thing I have to collect.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this point. There is little functional difference between a player losing a roll after hitting need and not being selected under personal loot. If you didn’t win loot, you have no rights to it nor do you get to decide what the winner should do with the loot.
I don’t support players turning around and selling an item they win. But from the perspective of the player who didn’t win, all that matters is they didn’t get the item. It wouldn’t be different for them if you replaced that person who won with a person who equipped the item. Trying to draw a distinction between these two opens up a whole can of worms around how different player’s values systems relate together.
Except that there is no defined rule that was broken by the person who ultimately resulted in the class being punished. The system defines when a player can press need. There are no supplemental regulations around whether someone presses need beyond those. You are wanting to define that “needing to sell to someone in the raid” as being against the rules even though we as players have no authority to do so. It’s a scummy thing to do and I wouldn’t be opposed to Blizzard clarifying that this is against the rules; but they are the only ones who can make these rules. And without those rules being in place, I would not support a change that uses the history of those activities as a reason why potentially completely other players are penalized.
It absolutely would be different, because they would both be “fair” rolls, as defined by Blizzard. Need has always meant upgrade, and there is nothing to indicate that has changed.
There’s no rule, because there’s no punishment.
But there are guidelines. We can implicitly determine that rolling need and selling an item are not what was intended, because we cannot roll need on everything. If not, there is no point in having anything beyond “Roll” and “Pass”. Having those, without any implications, only muddies the waters in terms of the group understanding, and leads to breakdowns like these – where some people feel they’ve done nothing wrong and others are upset.
These types of posts repeatedly show up on this forum, and in LFR chat. I would prefer they instituted some type of change to address this chronic problem. Whether it’s restricting Need rolls more, removing any expectation of anything other than “Roll” and “Pass”, or letting a group decide which of those it prefers at whatever point (when the raid starts, before queueing, etc.), the status quo is unacceptable to a considerable number of people, myself included.
I’ve always stated that, obviously, there’s nothing “legally” wrong with abusing these guidelines, but I think it is an ethical failure, and hence, people who do this should be prepared to be considered “jerks”.
That’s about the long and short of it, though.
EDIT: I do appreciate the objective and good faith discussion though. It’s nice to see that on here once in a blue moon , though I’m pretty sure I’ve seen plenty of your other posts as engaging in rational and thoughtful discussion.
You could argue that the indication was when blizz rolled out the new system with significant changes and didn’t make need only applicable to very specific upgrades. They left most things up to the player to determine if it was a need for themselves, while leaving only some specified need > greed restrictions.
Sure, but Blizzard also took the time to add protections into the system which doesn’t include needing items that you intend to sell. There’s a gray area here which each player can decide what the “right” use should be. Morally I actually am fully on board with your position, and I would never try to sell an item I win out of LFR. But there are a lot of related use cases that get closer and closer to what I might consider to be okay, and since these guidelines are player-defined, there isn’t going to be a consistent definition.
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here. But at the same time, Blizzard saw fit to allow cross-server gold trading even within LFR. Blizzard could easily prevent trading anything except conjured items in LFR while keeping all other forms of cross-server trading alone. Now this could just be an oversight or lack of priority thing so I do not intend for my statements to suggest that Blizzard implicitly endorses selling loot out of LFR. But I would also have no leg to stand on to try to convince someone this isn’t the case based on what Blizzard has said (or more accurately not said) and the actions they’ve taken.
Sure, and this is one of the posts that’s been fairly well-intended. But I can also vividly recall receiving 11 whispers when I looted a Scars of Fraternal Strife off the Jailer in LFR back in SL S3. I can recall getting cursed out last season when I won a Rashok’s Molten Heart (when I’d queued into the raid as resto) because I already had a heroic OCE and normal Nelth class trinket. There are a lot of perspectives on loot and how it should be handled, and many of the vocal members of the group looking to restrict what players holding higher item levels can have a chance on can act in pretty vile ways as well.
And regardless which perspective anyone wants to come from, it all boils down to one group of players trying to impose different rules than what exists in the game upon another group of players. Unless Blizzard makes a change (which is what you’re advocating for, so I get there’s not much else you can personally do) or comes out with a policy update, I’m going to have a hard time trying to get behind any community solution in LFR because no one player’s voice is more important than another’s.
So this is partly what I’m going by here, about the only thing I can find (though by no means have I done an exhaustive search):
Specifically “You may only roll Need on an item if your class can equip it and it is considered an upgrade.”
Now, obviously “upgrade” here is subject to a lot of interpretation, and I think the limit here is a technical one, not an all-encompassing intention of allowance. Though, granted, that is based on what I think, and we don’t have anything additional to go on, so it’s only speculation.
Regardless, it’s that definition of “upgrade” that is missing, or can vary. However, we can infer a few things:
The item must be equippable. This limitation is not imposed on sellable items, so we can infer that “selling” is not considered an “upgrade”
It cannot be the exact same item. Again, this wouldn’t be something that would be imposed on an item if it were able to be sold. So another indication that this must directly be beneficial to combat.
It will be interesting to see if this changes when they unlock the ability to collect transmogs from all items, regardless of them being equippable. If they allow Need rolls on unequippable gear, I would be forced to acknowledge that “upgrade” does include things like “transmog”.
Yea, this one actually doesn’t make a ton of sense to me. I think it’s a short-sighted implementation, and I expect it may possibly cause enough grief for them to roll it back, but we’ll have to see. However, it could also apply to those rolling on transmogs, so I’d still argue that this is only ancillary to the issue, though I’d admit it does provide some small boost to your theory.
I absolutely agree that the squeakiest wheel isn’t always right, in that regard. Realistically, I don’t think it’s terribly beneficial for loot drops to be broadcast. I’d received plenty of whispers as well during PL and I’m not advocating for that to necessarily return.
Certainly, and I’m not trying to imply my voice has greater weight simply for being mine. I’m only trying to piece together what I can of Blizzard’s intent, which isn’t easy or straightforward. It’s like a Constitutional lawyer trying to interpret the intent of long dead founders, but Blizzard’s not dead, they just won’t actually speak up… about anything.
My biggest issue is really with the confusion itself. If it were more clear what was intended vs. what are technical limitations vs. “what we didn’t have time to implement”, a lot of these discussions would go away. There would still be some whining, but it wouldn’t have a leg to stand on with clearly defined intent that ran contrary to the complaint.
You know for as long as I can remember, even when we could only group up with people from our own realms. As long as you could trade items in dungeons or in raids between each other when you won them. People have been doing it with Gold attached to it as part of the deal if they give to you, you had to pay them gold in return. And yes it been on the whole Need before Greed roll system or Master Loot system.
I don’t get where people (specially LFR gear as worthless as it is in the long run) are so upset that most people are just hitting the NEED button every time it pops up, no matter what they have on. More so if they ask for that item, that the person who won it, will say sure, and then say show me the GOLD in exchange. There are BOE’s in LFR that are sold in the AH for 90k no one is complaining about that.
Right now 441 gear is raining from the sky it is so easy to get each week. And some people are losing their minds over probably a very small group, needing on it, and when asked, are willing to sell it for very low gold amount, in LFR.
If a player who has helped kill a boss, chooses and is given an option to roll NEED on an item. And the RNG gods have granted that player the highest roll and they win it. What they do with that item is totally up to them at that point. It is totally theirs, they have won it fair and squire. They can keep it, dis-enchant it, vender it, give it to a buddy, save it for an off set, throw it away in the air or offer it up for trade, or yes sell it for gold within the party.
The fact is, the odds of repeatedly be randomly stuck in the same LFR’s with the same people are really remote. I have really never openly seen anyone advertise they are selling something they just won in chat. So maybe this only is happening when someone IM’s in private.
To me, people worry way to much about what other people win, and what they do with it.
Cause I have 0 experience in a normal raid environment seriously since probably WoD- especially on my DH who I’m probably horrible at but dangit, she’s fun- who’s only experience in raiding is LFR.
As you can see, I don’t exactly play Juju anymore. Everyone just knows me as Juju.
However, in the real world game in WoW, people kind of want experienced players or they’re spammers.
I’m not subjecting a raid group to my current horribleness. I can play her good when I’m allowed my freedom of movements and stuff. Once I know the mechanics, I still like to help with add duty if I notice them. But I’ll try to figure out where the healers are and see what I’m probably standing in.
I used to be awesome on my hunter and could work miracles on Juju at times. But with them, I remembered to also follow the mechanics.
But yeah, LFR and world content is pretty much my only content right now.
I want a house and VR capabilities and I would probably never leave.
Juju you have to always look at it like this, no matter where you run in group content there is are people you’re not going to care for because of their attitude. But you have to choose is the reward is worth dealing with those type of people once in awhile or not. Normal raid is actually mechanically about the same as LFR. When ran correctly by a leader is actually as easy or easier than LFR. It can actually be faster to clear the whole raid too. On the other hand you end up in a group that cant tell their right from their left, it will be a train wreck.
I mean as far as I’m concerned the transmog button should be rolling for just the appearance against everyone who selected transmog while anyone rolling need/greed would be rolling for the actual item. It’s crazy to me that Blizzard would create a system where a legitimate reason why many step foot into LFR has an unbelievably low chance at ever providing that reward because it competes directly with another legitimate reason others are there but is hard coded to be of lower priority. This is especially true since the appearance of some items can only come from LFR.
So long as loot trading exists in LFR, there is going to be toxicity around players expecting other players to hand over their loot. While not broadcasting the loot seems like a good idea, I worry it would just result in those same addons we had back under PL to whisper any winner to beg for an item to be modified to whisper the entire raid begging for loot. It’s easy enough to ignore to be sure, but it’s still annoying when all I want is a fair shot at loot I helped earn (again, not to sell).
Sure, and please don’t take my words to mean that I was taking what you’ve said here to mean you think your words carry more weight. I was talking more generally across the entire player base.
Blizzard is the only authority on what should and shouldn’t happen when it comes to loot in LFR since players have no control over group formation and only slight control over continued raid membership. If they change the loot systems and/or release clarity on how the system should be used, then I’ll get on board with calling people out for stepping outside the lines. Just in the absence of such modifications or clarity, anything we come up with will result in one group of players trying to dictate what should happen to another group of players despite neither group holding any authority on the matter. And when such things happen, the end result is oftentimes worse for most people involved (especially those who won’t have a horse in the race but are swept up in the drama) than if people just accepted the system doesn’t quite conform to their ideals.
100%. Unfortunately most game publishers suck at this, and Blizzard is no exception.
I do agree with your overall point, but did want to point out that BOEs are still personal loot. No player declared their intent to roll against you to win it, the game just decided that player should have it, no different than the game deciding you earned a Wildercloth off mob A while I got nothing.
I would say all your arguments have no relative points here. Exploitation is ‘taking advantage’ knowingly. How many ‘gang’ groups are running in LFR that are there specifically to need on all, and then extort gold from players who just ran LFR for gear they need. I am so tired of this 'increasingly ‘corrupt mindset’.
I was pointing out the actual definition of a word based on the text you posted…not making any comments on the fairness of it or the fact that it is lame to do…
“Its not exploiting anything…hes simply trying to take advantage of a situation.”
But hey, arguing for the sake of arguing is fun too. Players who want to be jerks will be jerks and there is nothing you can do about that except not play with them so in that regard you are correct, he “won the roll” but will lose in the long run when no one will play with him and he (or she) ends up an LFR only troll…and we wonder why people leave the game in droves these days lol
, though I’m pretty sure I’ve seen plenty of your other posts as engaging in rational and thoughtful discussion.