We differ on that point then because I DO say its a broken ‘system’.
Leveling in the way pretty much all RPGs, digital and pen and paper, have developed it is broken by its very nature.
A trained veteran navy seal can be taken down by a kid with a rock. That isnt the case in most RPGs where he’d be a god to the kid with the stone. Invincible.
but as I said, its the ONLY way to appease the players.
Without the feeling of real ‘progression’…of ‘power’…most players will lose interest, so its in the best interests of the game maker to push the leveling system with all of its inherent flaws and hope that no one notices just how absurd it really is.
But again, if its going to be fixed…or corrected…it can be done while LFR being left in the game.
One more difficulty level isnt the problem.
Players wanting more and more and more to stay entertained and engaged is the SOLE cause of it.
difficulty which is LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic. People complain about creep. Yet LFR is not the line for item level. Normal is the line for Item level. Then they nerf that item level for LFR. The creep you guys always complain about has nothing to do with LFR at all. The problem is all the damn ways you cant get 385 plus gear in game, From WQ, WF quest, PVP conquest for just two casual bgs a day, guaranteed weekly reward, Incursions, etc… Now that I can see you having a real complaint about.
I think we agree on the principles, but perhaps quibble over the actual numbers. From what I can tell, an ilvl increase from 340-355-370-385 (LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic Uldir) actually raises the dps multiplier from 100% (LFR base) to about 120% to 144% to 173% because the dps rise is exponential at a little over 1% per ilvl point.
And yes, we seem to agree that we can fix this (if we agree that it’s a problem) without removing LFR and without removing WF/TF but just turning the inflation down a notch or two.
Which proves my point. PLAYERS want MORE and so to appease them more is given.
What happens if all of the gear levels are locked for a year?
for a month even?
People would quit in droves.
Of course LFR is going to be the new normal in a few weeks…and heroic in a few more weeks.
THAT is how leveling works and has worked since RPG systems like this were created.
I’m not saying to lock them, to set inflation to zero. I’m saying dial it down from 73% increase per raid tier to something like 30%, which is an ilvl increase of 45 that goes down to about 15 or 20.
honestly, I wouldnt want to be the guy having to decide where the numbers fall. This game has math problems that about put me over the edge some days. Dont get me started on how my 120 gets stomped fighing 120 world trash in one zone, then mops the floor with an elite that by common sense math should have stomped me into a blood stain in the mud.
No rhyme or reason to most of this game.
Id gladly deal with the inflation if they’d devote a month to fixing this insane scaling problem.
I really don’t think having multiple difficulty lvls has anything to do with what’s wrong now.
The removal of tier sets, the carrot on a stick for pushing through raids was replaced with azerite gear which is unimpressive, not to mention the whole RNG, lottery system of allocation is the big problem.
Raiding for the possibility of titanforging just doesn’t feel rewarding.
Then throw in level-scaling and ilvl scaling in the open world and explain to me that when I pick herbs in Legion content I spawn a 110 easily killed and in WoD I spawn a 120 with so much health (not really a challenge to me or damaging to me, just annoyingly long-lasting) that it takes three or four complete rotations to down the regular mob…
Definitely should be absolute lines. 20–25 ilevels between each difficulty or something like that with no chances of anything higher.
But do the players start crying for more and quit if they dont get it?
I dont know.
They said level scaling was put in place, to give a chance for 385 gear from just the world stuff, WQ, incursions, World Bosses etc… Myself I would rather get rid of scaling, and be able to rock the world, in my little LFR gear set.
well, no…I didnt mean to imply you meant to say that.
My only point was to say that players can be spoiled. But they pay the bills.
How to appease them without breaking the system worse than it is now.
THIS is the crap that made me start designing my own game systems a few years ago. So tired of using systems designed for the sort who have to feel ‘progress’ in the form of becoming gods to lowlings.
Seems like its always been that way in these RPGs.
Me and my game clan hate games like that, so we’ve had a lot of fun using our own systems that are far more realistic that Im sure wouldnt sell a single copy on the shelves at the game store for the simple fact that they dont offer the godlike leveling.
This quote of a quote states its purpose quite clearly.
When players argue that LFR somehow harms World of Warcraft, they are initiating an argument against the status quo which is what Blizzard is doing–they wish for Blizzard to change.
I am seeing those against the status quo shifting the burden of proof to those who support the option of LFR. This is a fallacious maneuver–the one who makes the claim typically bears the burden of proof, not the other way around.
Y’all assert that LFR harms the game. What is the origin of this assertment? You have not proven or really provided any sort of concrete evidence that it is harmful. You are presuming that this is true, an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy and arguing from that standpoint.
Individuals have come forward with their personal stories of how LFR serves them. Their anecdotes are dismissed as personal stories, when the opinions of the ones who argue LFR’s lack of value are also presumably arguing from their own personal experiences or personal biases. You don’t get to dismiss personal experiences as invalid when your hypothesis comes from personal experiences.
People leaving the game is a complex problem not exclusively due to one singular element or another. I’m not sure you can claim that something statistically has driven people off while refusing to acknowledge those who disagree because they also don’t have any sort of statistics to counter.
The most compelling arguments I’ve seen is that “community” is harmed and that LFR keeps people who would raid away from raiding because of ease of access. Yet my posts on Wendaria talking about improving community and how raid groups could potentially change themselves to attract more people were largely overlooked.
Community in particular strikes me as odd to me, perhaps it’s because I’m a retired raider and RPer on a RP server. If you’re so concerned about community, you should be posting on your realm forums and helping support and build up the community on your own server.
I happen to be a moderator for my realm’s Discord, there are also other community spaces. Our community bonds in these spaces. Facebook, Tumblr, Twitter, Pillowfort, Discord, wherever. Blizzard taking away LFR isn’t going to help build your realms’ communities. People taking the steps to grow their communities will.
In WoD there was the Ashran pug stomping communities and while they were hated, they were communities and people partaking in them had a lot of fun. These were non-guild player made communities and anyone can make something like them.
As for the argument that removal of LFR is good because toxicity. How often do you sit there and report that toxicity? In LFR? In global chat channels? In battlegrounds? There’s toxicity everywhere, you don’t get to selectively single out one space where there’s toxicity for removal while ignoring other arguably more toxic spaces. Sorrynotsorry.
I have a lot of regrets about Raid Finder for WoW. I am sure I worked on features that were much, much worse, but that’s the first one that came to mind.
To be clear, the goal of getting more players into raiding is a good one. But the way Raid Finder turned out removed, IMO anyway, a lot of the epicness of what made raiding raiding. I also haven’t played WoW in a few years, so it’s entirely possible they have solved the problem by now.
Hmm maybe all of us Casuals should start a movement. Where we unsub for six months straight. Since we could easily do that, with not playing it like our life. See how WoW does with just the hardcores left paying the bills. Wait is that not what happened to Wildstar?
