In this case, it’s a retcon.
If the story says “Steve died”, but Steve is up and about walking and talking and just having a gay old time and you can go and see him any time you want and he can interact with the world, then I feel most people would say maybe he didn’t die.
So, if death requires soul destruction then the only major characters to ever die in the setting are Zovaal, Arthas, and Garrosh.
Everyone else is still alive because their souls are still there.
I agree, Shadowlands was ****ing stupid and **** on death in the setting.
That’s not even a Shadowlands thing though.
Sindragosa had been dead for 10,000 years and Arthas yanked her soul back and bound it to her body. Which by your definition means she was alive and never killed.
Or he’s a ghost/ghost-like cosmic being.
WoW has had those since as early as Vanilla. Not just the hostile “I’m’a kill you” ghosts, but also ones like Yalda in Darkshore. She is certainly dead (or we assumed she was until Cata confirmed it), but since Cata she even gives quests and talks to you. She might not be walking, but she is certainly talking and giving you quests to go do things. She has a desire for vengeance, but her own gossip text makes it clear she isn’t just hanging around for that; pre-Cata, she just wanted to keep an eye on her family.
I don’t think many of us would call a ghost alive. And ghosts being able to interact with the world has long been established in various forms. More powerful ghosts can do more powerful interactions, but they are still most certainly dead (or undead).
It would be interesting to know what “death” means to a godlike cosmic entity with near limitless power.
The fact that you don’t admit the defeat cinematic for Zovaal was literally a robot shell avatar shutting off and reverting to the identical shape of the other prototype pantheon (described in the dungeon journal as “Bereft of the cosmic spirits of the Eternal Ones, these incomplete host bodies can only carry out their base directives without mercy or compassion” ) earlier in the raid is all the proof we need that you are dishonest and disingenuous.
The word avatar means exactly what it did in every form of fantasy and science fiction. As confirmed and repeated in the dungeon journal for Fallen Avatar in the Tomb of Sargeras raid.
The Titans were World Souls first, and never had bodies until later, when they wanted one for convenience. At which point, defeating that body just makes it inconvenient for them to physically act in reality for a little.
I’m arguing what we saw was the death of Zovaal. You arguing Zovaal is not dead at all and can just pop into another avatar.
You are arguing Zovaal is still alive and kicking in spite of being told he is not, that he is dead and gone. I’m not the dishonest one here. I’m not the disingenuous one.
Coveniently, you’re also saying that Argus did not die in Antorus, in spite of his death and being sent to the Shadowlands after his death is exactly what took out the Arbiter. So… I guess the Arbiter was never taken out by a dead Argus-soul shooting through the Shadowlands? And that was all just an illusion? And that echo of Argus we fought in Zereth Mortis, the last fragments of his soul, also did not exist and we also did not finally murder the last bit of him.
Not only are you being dishonest and disingenuous, you’re argument is also not making sense.
You mean the Avatar which was at no point Sargeras himself, and only described as some tiny portion of him because he needed another Well of Eternity-sized portal to come through himself? Thus proving that the titans did have physical forms (too big for normal portals) that were not avatar bodies (small enough for portals)?
That Avatar of Sargeras? The one disproving your entire argument that titans don’t have bodies and only inhabit avatars?
Way to pick up the goal post and trebuchet it into the next county…
No. You were not arguing that Zovaal was not alive, you pretended that he had a “body” and the “body” was him. Which is patently false. Zovaal was a “cosmic spirit” using a robotic host body. In other words… we defeated an avatar.
You keep being dishonest about Sargeras. Sargeras is and was a World Soul. Chronicle proves this. Metzen proved this. It was the World Soul of Sargeras that was not able to teleport across the great dark beyond without help. There was no body other than temporary bodies which Sargeras makes, i.e. avatars. The same avatar that Eonar makes for herself, and Aggramar makes for himself, and Norgannon makes for himself, and Argus makes for himself. Argus was literally the World Soul that we saw in the skybox of the Aggramar fight in the Antorus raid. He was not a body. He made an avatar to physically assault us. Every single Titan is a World Soul. They never came from bodies, Chronicle proves this.
A World Soul is not a Body. It never was. Stop being dishonest about this.
We’ve got villains? Xala’tath’s big toe.
the scourge were jobbers
their only big achievement is quelthalas they couldnt even hold lordaeron for more than a few months
illidan almost killed them too
I argued that when we smashed the body, we smashed him. I’m not moving goal posts, sweetie. I’m consistent with the discussion.
So you’re arguing in spite of the lore, Zovaal is not dead.
I… Never said he wasn’t?
Except that isn’t what the lore states. The lore makes it clear; Sargeras was trying to go through the WoE. Not a temp body; he himself.
You are saying the lore is wrong about the lore.
Uhh… No, that is the planet we see.
So again, you’re saying we did not kill Argus.
In spite of the premise behind death breaking and causing Shadowlands being that Argus did die.
Again, you’re saying the lore is wrong about the lore.
Y’know what? Give an actual source. Give one from somewhere that proves a single claim you have made.
Other people are telling you actual lore events, actual lore statements, and you’re insisting they are wrong. Instead of making up things and claiming the lore is wrong about the lore, why not back up your argument about what the lore says with things the lore actually does say.
You are honestly wrong, honestly misunderstanding things or making them up.
There is no dishonesty in pointing to the lore and saying it is the lore.
Dude, Chronicles is where it says Sargeras killed the other titans.
If you’re going to site a source at least know what’s actually in the source.
At the risk of sounding like someone who thinks going to the Shadowlands was a bad idea on principle, obviously if destroying something’s body and sending its soul to the afterlife isn’t killing it, then I don’t know what is. Are we immortal?
It kind of ruins the concept of death if the afterlife is a physical place you can go to, the dead are actually alive, and are able to freely do whatever they want (assuming they aren’t stuck in Revendreth).
If the afterlife isn’t any different than anywhere else, then what makes it the afterlife? And if being dead functionally isn’t any different than being alive, then what is even the point of the distinction?
Same old dishonesty on your part… still waiting for that page number of where the Chronicle claims that the origin of Titans was in “bodies” …but it will be a long wait; because it says otherwise.
I’m giving you sources you can look up. You’re saying “nuh-uh, trust me bro, that isn’t it!!!”
Still waiting for you to site any reference to Zovaal not being dead, Argus not being dead, and anything saying Chronicle lied when it said the Titans would have died without Norgannon’s spell. Other than you saying it.
Source.
You do this all the time… constant red herrings and misrepresentations. Seriously. Go find the page anywhere in Chronicle that claims the “ORIGIN” of Titans was in bodies first. If you will ever bite the bullet and admit that you were dishonest about that…I’ll spend more time with your red herrings.
What, asking you for any proof of your weird claims? Yes, I do ask for it all the time, because you never give it. Show me evidence, show me examples, and I’ll stop having to ask for it.
I’ve provided mine. I’ve shown you what the lore has stated. I’ve shown you where new lore reflects that. I’ve pointed to recent in-game examples to further back that claim.
You just claim that I’m lying, the lore is lying, the game is lying, and you’re right.
See, this is an obvious misdirect, because you’re asking me to prove a claim nobody made. Nobody said they had bodies first. We’re pointing out they do have physical forms, those physical forms can and have been destroyed, and this “avatar” bullcrap you’re going on about is just that; bullcrap. We have avatars in the game and in the lore, and they’re not what you’re claiming. You’ve been shown the lore proving they are not. You said that’s wrong too.
You are very dishonest. You make up false claims, demand people defend points nobody even made so you can shift the goal post away from defending your own claims.
You have no evidence. If you did, you’d actually reference it. Instead, you demand further references from me, and for me to defend some made-up point you think will “win” your argument for you.
I think we’re done here.