Church
You understand the concept of requiring multiple reports before punishments start getting handed out, right?
You just repeated yourself that yes, M+ is ran with a party that was made manually and the game didn’t create the party for you. That’s cool and we know that.
What I’m still not getting is why that makes any and all accountability for leaving completely disappear and now there are no limits or questions asked for leaving a key after timer start which then gives a punishment to the key holder by downgrading it and also wastes the time of the other four people who now have nothing to show for it except repair costs and the better part of an hour down the drain.
Obviously we’ve all had keys that are doomed and have no chance of being completed much less timed. I agree it should be ok to nope out of those. What should not be ok is a repeated behavior of leaving too many keys. There should be a point that it stops being acceptable, no?
Because its upon the group leader to make the correct decisions on who to pick.
M+ was never designed to be ran with full randos. It was designed to be done amongst groups of friends.
Raids for people with large groups of friends, m+ for those with a small roster. The intention was no one would leave. And if someone did leave, no one was getting butt hurt about it because it was understood.
And again, when you get to higher keys, things you know not of since you dont even break 10s, its a groupwide acknowledgement that if a key isnt going to time, you cut your losses and call the key.
How is that supposed to happen with a leaver penalty? How does an entire group that unanimously agrees to leave the key, avoid being penalized over something none of them.think the others should be penalized for?
Leaver penalty is already in place for queued content because you dont get to choose who youre grouped with. Blizzard matchmakes. So theyre already punished.
When you make the group, its up to you (or the leader), to ensure youve got a group of like minded individuals.
You want people that dont leave? Put your key up as completion…that option exists solely for this reason alone
No. Again, once you get above your keys, its commonplace because gear is no longer the reward. Score is. If youre not gaining score, no reason to complete it
We are once again repeating ourselves, rather long windedly, that yes, M+ is ran with a party you manually create and the game doesn’t make the party for you. Thank you, we know that already.
The game still is and should remain playable by pugs. Those players deserve to have a decent game experience too.
The issue is finding that point, in such a way that does not impact the previous statement.
How do you ensure that one is not hitting a horrible run of getting into keys that are doomed and having no chance of being completed, much less timed?
I am not talking about leaving a key 2 seconds after it starts.
This has been my point since my first post. Trying to figure out a way to establish “early leaving” that does not also get collateral damage. Its next to impossible to ensure this could happen.
And once again. I am not talking about a person that leaves 2 seconds into the m+.
A few things. First, in a random dungeon, everyone is just a random. In a premade group, one person is the leader of the group, they have the authority of being in charge, being able to remove folks, being able to curate who is in the group to precisely their liking. They also have kick authority, which under the random system would flag you as leaving by the way. For having that authority and control, they also take the risk.
Secondly, the purpose of the deserter debuff is that it prevents you using the random tools, so that people wouldn’t leave when they disliked their random dungeon (the Occulus). That isn’t a thing in premades. You might get the occasional person who is intentionally engaged in gameplay sabotage, using racial slurs, etc, which is still covered by other rules for actual behavior, but leaving a group you are welcome to do.
Not a point that you can define without manually investigating each key. Is the composition bad? Did the leader misrepresent the level of the dungeon? Did someone waste a big cooldown? Not talent into dispel? The key being fundamentally bricked? Someone having an agility weapon on Warrior? All valid reasons to leave, the group failed the key, it is dead. Nobody should receive any penalty.
And it is. You can pug to a high level, I’ve pugged as high as 23s and some untimed 24s back in Shadowlands, it was very possible then, and it is very possible to pug to high levels now (maybe not 24s now, with the new key system, but certainly above 10s which are the end for gear and portal rewards)
I pug over the gear limit and have a great experience. GD problems.
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And why do you think leaver penalties will make the pugging scene better? People will just be far pickier with what groups they join or just stop risking the pug scene at all. Why risk getting stuck in a group with someone incapable of clearing the content? Now, leaver penalties for groups tagged ‘completion’ I can get behind. I avoid those like the plague as is.
I feel like this is still too focused on what currently -is- and we’re still stuck on just saying “its not currently against the rules so people can do it” which is kind of a lazy way to look at the situation
It hypothetically wouldn’t need to be manual. A trend of reports of someone leaving instances will form a picture of behavior that says “hey this guy leaves keys too often, he gets a warning to stop doing that so much”
I was trying to do this back in shadowlands as well and I got tired of it because the disband rate for Kharazan was terrible. I actually just gave up trying to get 20’s done because I didn’t like so much of my night getting thrown away because someone died and left.
Ok. But we are back to the original issue.
How much is too much?
That is why it becomes an issue nearly impossible to limit. Because the number will either be so high its irrelevant. Or so low it gets innocent people.
And if it actually becomes an issue, people will just troll the group until someone else leaves first.
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Pick better groups.
The end
If you can’t bother to engage past a lazy thought killing response like that then just catch an ignore tbh
You refuse to engage in any actual conversation that answers your question because youre unable to comprehend that your idea is full of multiple holes that has been pointed out multiple times.
Its a player made problem so its a player made solution. And its up to the group leader to vet the players
Okay, here’s a rhetorical for ya.
Imagine you are invited to a M+ group, there aren’t any immediate red flags so you stick around for the key to start going.
First pull, tank does a single pull then 10 seconds later decides to pull the entire room, loses aggro even after having more than ample time to grab mobs, and still dies even when they don’t have mobs on them. They rez, run back, grab one or two mobs that the group is still in combat with and kiting and dies again. After a long and arduous first trash pull you get to the boss. Boss starts, tank and half the party doesn’t know the boss mechanics and the group wipes. Go for another pull and wipe again for the same reasons of the tank just deciding to die.
Now, consider it is a +8, a key only useful for vault, at what point would it be the leaver’s fault in this instance for not wanting to spend an hour or more on a key the group might not even be able to complete? Should you be held hostage in a bad group in a key level they shouldn’t be in? Same thing applies if it is a +18, there’s no reason to complete it if it doesn’t grant rating which is why groups doing higher keys often call ‘ggs’ and downgrade the key early when they reach a point where it is impossible to complete it in time.
Yeah its already been addressed multiple times in this thread that leaving the odd doomed fiesta disaster of a key should be fine and the focus should be on stopping people repeatedly and consistently leaving keys
oh goody its still going
gives me something to do while i paint my nails
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Just a note but when you engage in probable hypotheticals the same very same rules apply on the other side of this question. While I will say it is rare it happens enough that people mention it and become extremely frustrated by it.
and your source that there’s enough people repeatedly and consistently leaving keys to merit a change such as this is… ?
And what if that doomed fiesta is something that follows a certain player that dooms the keys they are in? Just because they make a lot of mistakes and cause more people to leave, does that mean the leavers are at fault and not the problem player?