You guys really need to update your talking points to at least once a year or so.
The difference between 294 and 298 is negligible to me and wouldn’t have me signing up for raids to get 4 item levels
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Exactly, this is why raiding has improved so much over the years.
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This
I don’t even like tyrannical weeks let alone a raid boss 
Oh and also
I could’ve swore raid fights used to be 3-4 minutes. And then I see Sylvannas taking 15 minutes and I’m wondering who enjoys that
m+ is just simple content that is accessible whenever you want, it’s perfect.
Most key pushers would.
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He made a fire so hot even he couldn’t stand in the kitchen.
wiggles toes
Are we just making up stuff now? Ever heard of Illidan and The Lich King?
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Here’s the thing – even if you lower the M+ / Valor Upgrade / Whatever ilvl cap to something crazy like 15 ilvl below Heroic Raiding… it’s STILL the best way to gear up until that -15 ilvl cap. You spam M+. Any difficulty of raiding (see: Normal) that lives in that range is totally worthless because you can spam M+ all weekend and be kitted out vs getting 1 or 2 drops from full clearing a raid that you probably aren’t even full clearing for most of a patch.
What M+ needs isn’t an ilvl deficit, it’s a lockout. WoW PvE has ALWAYS functioned on lockouts. Either directly via Raiding or via something like Cata-era Valor Caps acting as a similar gate on the casual end.
Now, we still have Lockouts for Raiding, we still have the pseudo-lockout for casual content (how many cyphers you can get in a day to advance your research to increase your ZM gear ilvl, that kinda thing), but M+ now exists as an endgame pillar with no lockout surrounded by content that DOES have them.
Makes no sense and makes it blatantly the best choice for any bracket in which the gear it provides is meaningful. (atm, that’s every bracket, btw)
It couldn’t just be a copy/paste of Raid Lockouts. M+ isn’t designed in that way. But they could slap 3 charges on the Keystone that carry over to upgraded/downgraded keystones, make the EoD chest guarantee loot, and make opening it require a charge on your Keystone. There. Lockout. You get 3 picks. Then you still benefit from running more thanks to the Great Vault and Valor Upgrading.
Would have to fiddle with loot trade eligibility and keystone charges but I’m sure they could make it work.
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The great vault is the lockout. At least before we had valor it was the ONLY way to get good gear
While I would agree that the lack of a lockout is a huge part of the M+ problem, there’s no way it doesn’t need to take an ilvl hit. It’s difficulty is massively mismatched to what it rewards the player with in all senses: end of dungeon drop, upgradable rewards, and the absolutely idiotic 13 ilvls it gets in the Vault/Chest for zero reason (an entirely difficulty tier).
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I think the EoD drop is… a little off, but close enough to be acceptable.
But only if it comes with a lockout so you can’t spam it exclusively if you want to gear fast.
The Boosted Vault ilvl? Yeah, no, that’s insane and massively harmful to the game. No other row gets such a boost, so it’s just a blatant “M+ is the only thing that matters” feature. No excuse for it.
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Please be aware that there are people who play this game that aren’t aiming for Mythic Raid levels of gear.
The max vault ilvl is irrelevant unless that’s your goal.
Below that, while the Vault is obviously the best upgrade, EoD drops are still ENTIRELY relevant, with or without Valor upgrades.
If we want to pretend the Vault is M+'s lockout, then go ahead and get rid of all EoD loot and just let the player loot each column they unlock instead of choosing 1.
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Might as well but they would need to at least buff the great vault so players could target the loot they want.
They’ve nerfed mythic+ loot before and it caused massive outrage. I don’t see that changing
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I 100% do not expect Blizzard to actually make any meaningful changes to M+. The time for this to happen was BfA’s launch, at the ABSOLUTE latest. But instead, we got the current system for 6 years straight. Far too late to take it away without people metaphorically rioting. Unfortunately. I hate thinking about it.
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I think you are half right. I think they primarily need to make raids better. They need to be more rewarding and less time wasting. Trash should be severely reduced, no one likes trash anyway and don’t give me any bullcrap about BoEs. More drops would be great, too, and heck, why not throw in some sort of currency or something that acts as a sort of bad luck protection by allowing me to buy a specific item eventually? Of course, only let me buy the items off the droplists of bosses I have killed at least once, no sense letting me get Jailer loot from killing early bosses only a bunch of times. Dinars are almost this except they are too limited (only 3 total?), only allows me to buy Normal gear and only allows me to target weapons and trinkets. The heroic / mythic upgrade tokens are closer except they only let you upgrade gear you already have rather than let you target gear.
However, I also wonder if M+ should go completely untouched. For most classes, M+ has the BiS gear. It’s infinitely farmable and much more reliable to get loot than raids, the Valor system means even low M+ level loot can eventually be fully upgraded, the ilvl basically makes Normal and Heroic difficulty raids completely irrelevant, and with a Creation Catalyst system (which I entirely hope becomes a standard feature) even tier is no longer a Raid incentive since M+ can get 4 piece in 4 weeks. Raid can get 4 piece faster, potentially even week 1, but only if you’re absurdedly lucky, and they can’t be upgraded with Valor like M+ pieces can.
I’m sorry but M+ just has so many advantages over raid that I don’t think it’ll ever be balanced without nerfing M+ at leaat a little bit. Absolutely prioritize making raiding a better experience first and foremost, yes, because the state of raiding is shockingly bad and needs to be brought up to modern standards, but as long as M+ can so easily make Normal and Heroic difficulty entirely irrelevant…
Though that said, tbqh I don’t think raids and M+ will ever be balanced. As long as one is static and non-repeatable, and the other fluid and infinitely repeatable, one will always feel like it’s inferior to the other. Give raids better ilvls and make exclusive loot like tier pieces? M+ crowd will feel inferior and call out “raid or die” again. Have M+ give out loot that’s remotely close to Mythic ilvl and have relatively easy access to said tier pieces? Two entire raid difficulties become entirely irrelevant and the third remains too much of a hassle and not enough of an incentive for most players to deal with. How are you supposed to balance them without making one or the other feel irrelevant?
The uncapped valor this season sets up a precedent as well for later seasons. You give people an inch and they’ll take a mile.
If they want to destroy their game and make M+ literally useless then give me back my 3 bonus rolls per week. 4 weeks of doing mythic I’ve gotten ONE piece of gear which was the neck off Remnant which I can’t even use.
No. Nerfing mythic+ doesn’t make raiding more appealing. It will just make people angry and stop playing.
If they nerfed mythic+ but then added in a single player progression system similar to visions, that would maybe pass. But I don’t think they’ll ever get a lot of mythic+ players to enter a raid without significant changes to how raids function