Yes did you just notice we’re contrasting wrath classic where gammas exist to original wrath where they didn’t(nor did the 2 badge style system).
Glad you understand now how the changes in wrath classic fundamentally changed gearing.
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No, its absolutely an argument, there were different battlegroups which were clusters of servers and that is what the group finders would pull from for pvp and pve content through the automated grouping systems, you were on a bad one. Thats not an excuse, thats a fact.
Yes, it is. Blizzard didnt label it and market it as “wrath with changes” they marketed it as relive the classic. Blizzard failed at that like they always do.
You werent around? Too bad, go back and look. They were everywhere.
No I mean increased emblems.
You either dont play now or didnt play in Wrath. Originally you only got 2 current emblems from the heroic daily, now you get 5. This increases the rate at which you get geared and because those rewards are so good from these increased difficulties is forces you into these dungeons. People werent saying “oh yes these dungeons are great!” they complained about the affixes during alpha but still did them because they would get 5 emblems. This is just basic rewards 101. If you put greater rewards on bad content, people will still do it because of the rewards.
That didnt exist, and that more difficult content brings higher playerbase requirements and breeds toxicity. Something YOU said existed in OG, but now are saying because people didnt care about it back in OG Wrath for heroics, that its irrelevant… YOU BROUGHT IT UP.
It does matter because you claimed people did this in dungeons as well… which is just false.
Yes, it did. Heroics were a pain to get into when Phase 2 came out because the playerbase became split. This lowered the pool of players for heroics which meant a longer time getting groups if there were even anyone looking for heroics to a point where you just didnt do the daily for that day. It could take over an hour for a tank to find a group or not at all. Even if you started your own group the pool of players wasnt there to make one. Its like being in a desert and trying to find wood to start a fire… cant make a fire if there is nothing to burn.
lol, yeah that really happened in Wrath, where people couldnt kill LK until the buff came in. Just a quick LK kill with no buff… no problem, even though the world first raid couldnt kill it without it… SUUUUURE… makes perfect sense. Quit making stuff up.
It is an argument and a pretty good one if you have nothing to say about it other than “nuh uh!”
Not reading the rest of your nonsense.
This rogues so bent out of shape that hes literally doing what he states everyone else does, be toxic and a troll.
Just cant stand being wrong.
Also, again, thats not how statistics works.
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Sure it did, it changed gearing from run heroics then progress through raids to spam regular heroics then spam gammas. Since that option didn’t even exist in original wrath and is the obvious best choice in wrath classic yes it’s fundamentally different.
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What confuses you about it? Only two kinds of badges drop now. The top tier which is now frost and a second tier which is not triump. That is also fundamentally different than how wrath worked originally. And is what partly enables 1(See above)
They also added a second dungeon daily which drops the top tier but only for doing the top level h+ which is yet more incentive to move into gammas ASAP when you get 210 ilvl.
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Sounds like you’re the one with nothing but “Nuh uh” since you won’t even read the rebuttal to you. Stay mad.
No, if anything changing 10m loot to drop 25m loot has had a much more significant impact. It’s just objectively worse to run spam gammas for the gearing process over running 10m raids. 10m raids are easier to do, the drops are better, and you get emblems faster. Gamma runs are great if you are a geared raider that just needs a SINGLE item from a raid that never dropped. But if you need wholesale items across the board, you’re better to go to raids where you get way more for your time.
The problem is that most raiders have what they need. There is no incentive to run old raids. So you have fail pug after fail pug with no alternative. Gammas are there to fix that gap. New alts gearing up can get higher ilvl drops, emblems, daily rewards, AND scourgestones. Geared players can farm the scourgestones they need for their missing piece and also get their daily. And this is even more apparent as the point when you look at the changes from beta to gamma. Beta was a failure because sidereal was only rewarded from the last boss, meaning players only wanted to do skip runs which left the gearing players unable to obtain the gear drops.
This EXACT PROBLEM exists no matter what content you put out there. If you remove gammas, geared groups are either not going to run old raids or they are going to target farm the important bosses, leaving gearing players excluded. The problem exists independent of gammas, because it’s the PLAYERS creating the issue. It’s the speed run for efficiency crowd. Always has been.
And the proof is right here that you don’t actually care about the gearing, you’re just making a bad faith #nochanges argument. Because you know what you can do right now in gammas? You can form a group with other gearing players to farm gammas JUST LIKE YOU WOULD RAIDING. But you know why you won’t ever suggest that as an option? It’s because you know for a fact that your argument is predicated on both forcing other people to carry you, and on there being a nochanges argument.
Gammas are objectively good for gearing new players by every metric, as is the change for 10m raiding. I know, I geared three 80s in WOTLK classic so far starting from scratch mid expansion. I started toward the end of ulduar, when alpha dungeons were a thing. I got into 10m and 25m naxx raids, I did heroics, I did alphas. I got geared very quickly with no issues. Because I know how to play the game. Looks like Classic isn’t for you.
You’re wrong. That is how it worked in original Wrath.
Patch 3.2.0 upgraded all emblems to Triumph or Conquest, and added the money changer to downgrade the existing emblems.
Patch 3.3.0 upgraded 5 man dungeons at 80 to drop triumph.
The frost from raid and triumph from everything else ABSOLUTELY happened in original wrath. It’s in all the patch notes.
They did that because there is no delay on wings in ICC. But again, you don’t actually care about the situation. It’s why you’re consistently wrong even about original wrath. Why is it always the moronic nochanges crew that are so confidently WRONG about how the original game worked?
To be fair, in OG Wrath the ICC dungeons allowed you to skip Naxx and Ulduar due to dropping 232 gear. By 3.3, people were only doing the older raids for achievements, not gear.
I get that people can kick you, but giving a 30 min debuff just makes not sense - especially if you’ve been in the group for only 2 mins, and haven’t even killed a boss yet. That’s the part that I would want an explanation on.
That they opened all the wings of ICC from the start doesn’t change that we’re talking about the process to get ready to run ICC in the first place and not about running ICC itself.
You’re talking about Frost Emblems. I also like how you just abandoned your other argument and didn’t even address that you were wrong. Not even a “fair enough”. Just all about the argument and not about actual solutions.
Yes which drop from the dungeon dailies and ICC, ICC which you won’t be able to do as a fresh 80.
And since we’re talking about the process of gearing a fresh 80…
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Correct. You are focused on the dungeon dailies for the wrong thing. The gamma daily giving 3 more frost emblems is there because ICC is fully open now. The point of those emblems is to get people into 4-piece tier faster. Something you are just refusing to understand.
Because you’re not here for a conversation, you’re here for an argument. You think you’re correct and just want to flex. Which is why you being wrong about original wotlk emblems is so sad.
And yet, when people go to do said dailies, they get kicked immediately upon entering a dungeon of which they are permitted to be for no other reason then self entitled toxicity.
The point of gammas is a surge in upgrades, and has very little to do with the original path taken to these upgrades in OG wrath.
It also comes with less social requirements in comparison to the orginial way.
The point is lost with this volume of gatekeeping and toxicity that exists now that was also prevalent then but not as exteme as the m+ community made it
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And you just gave posts like
Seems like you are the toxic mad one.
They did the older raids for emblems of frost through the weekly raid.
They added more Emblems of Frost because they opened all ICC wings? No they actually didnt do that which also doesnt explain the 5 emblems of Triumph and Conquest you got now unlike in OG. These extra emblems were added as an incentive to do H+.
Why is it the people that are so wrong that are the most toxic?
Wrong, its just a continuation of reward structure of the previous phases. While there wasnt a daily, you still got 5 of the current emblems of that phase for doing the daily in either beta or alpha, now its gamma. It has nothing to do with ICC being unlocked completely.
Maybe so, but at least on my server I remember the older raids mostly being advertised as achievement runs. Not just Wrath raids, but TBC raids too.
What?
We’ve had that second daily since Ulduar. It was just in the form of a bag at the end of your first alpha dungeon (and later beta).
How on earth did you tie that into ICC not being gated? O_o
He’s pretty confused about how badges work in general. He didn’t even know that in OG wrath badges that dropped in instances didn’t upgrade every new tier or that there were no sidereals or defiler stones.
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They did this though and one of the promises of classic was a simplification of the currency system to … prevent this or something? Barely any changes happened here expect adding more convoluted currencies.
It was one of the reasons RDF (and dungeons in general) was so good for gearing alts.
That happens sometimes. Some people are getting kicked for other reasons. There are a myriad of reasons. I’ve definitely said that I find the excessive elitism to be problematic and silly. It’s a player created problem though so there’s limitations on how to fix it. But I also reject the wholesale idea that anyone that can queue for a gamma belongs in that gamma by virtue of being in the queue. That’s a nonsensical argument that’s so easy to pick apart that it’s been done to death already.
Well no kidding the point of gammas is to do something other than original wrath. It’s a creation entirely for Classic. The point of gammas was to solve an issue with content gaps and player behavior. Geared players have no incentive to do older content and undergeared players lack a consistent method for achieving gear upgrades and getting raid ready aside from going through the older content, which people aren’t doing other than undergeared players. This creates a disconnect in the gameplay and incentives.
Heroic+ was their attempt at providing the 5man endgame content route that Mythic+ provides in retail in a wotlk era friendly way, while addressing that disconnection issue.
First we had Alphas, which were very straightforward and worked really really well aside from some issues with mechanics. Namely that all the mechanics were just negatives. But incentive wise it was a huge win. But they had a problem, how do they address the loot moving from Naxx to Uld for Betas? Uld introduced hardmodes, and you also now had different levels of gear. That’s why they created sidereal. Some hardmode gear could be target purchased from a vendor, while others remained locked to the raids themselves (Algalon). This was a mostly smart change EXCEPT for one thing, sidereal the main reason for geared players to be there heavily encouraged skipping the entire dungeon and just killing the last boss.
Skip runs in general are not something Blizz really wants to begin with, but it ALSO pushed out nearly all the gearing players from the beta content, which was counter to the purpose of Betas in the first place. But they did net a huge win by granting new mechanics to the Alphas that offered players a reward for their proper mechanics completion. Haste for killing mirror images, crit buff for clearing your fire in UP/UK, web wraps granting that damage bonus. Very smart change there.
And then we get to the Gammas, the pinnacle of the design philosophy. Not only did we get some choice buffs from the ring npc (very very good) we also fixed the skipping bosses issue. Now everyone wants all the bosses killed, offering loot to undergeared players and stones to overgeared ones. And because the undergeared players double dip, they get caught up quickly too. A win win for everyone. Unfortunately you still can’t control players and toxicity still exists.
This social requirement stuff is nonsense. It’s a rose colored glasses imagined view of how things were. The reality is there is just as much interaction now, people just don’t WANT to deal with it. Again you cannot control players. You’re just as capable of putting together premade gamma farm groups. In fact, you’re highly advised to. So why aren’t you? Why are you not putting the groups together yourself? You’re not required to queue with strangers to do gammas. So be social. Sounds like the real issue you have isn’t the lack of social situations, but more so your exclusion from the current social environment due to either your refusal to get better and perform, or your inability to acquire gear and advance.
I think you mean Heroic+. Mythic+ carries a different situation because the greatest loss in Heroic+ is time, the greatest loss in Mythic+ is your entire key. The punishment for failure in retail M+ is much higher, which creates greater degrees of toxicity (and also creates griefers that will literally ransom your key in the middle of a run)
The simple situation is that griefers, toxicity, and gatekeeping has always been and will always be a part of this game. And you are going to see that side of the game in areas where those players are most often interacting with lower geared players for the same objectives. Gammas are designed INTENTIONALLY to put both halves of the playerbase into the same content to facilitate grouping and interaction. And that’s not the removal of being social, it’s the social interaction taken to the final conclusion. Gatekeeping and toxicity in gammas is literally the end result of forced social interaction.
You look back fondly on original wrath older raid runs as being more welcoming because the vast majority of players in those groups were either also low gear and in the same situation, or had decided to volunteer their time exclusively to help people like that. The elitist toxic players were still there, but you didn’t have to deal with them because they weren’t in your groups or raids because you were literally segmented. The irony is you want LESS social interaction and more segmentation of the playerbase rather than more. Because when more of the playerbase is forced to interact in the same content this is EXACTLY what you get.