if this truly wraths version of m+ (which ive never done in retail) then i tell ya…
it really takes a lot of out of ya and i can only stomach to do maybe 1-3 a day and most of the time i only clear 1 lol.
idm it, i dont get upset or mad if theres no clears but its too damn much on me as a healer.
i get so tired after like half a run lmao.
not for me but i can see how ppl can enjoy it if they feel like stressin out all day lol.
Everything that was available in origional wotlk through normal heroic dungeons is still available through normal heroic dungeons.
So you are wrong.
H+/++/+++ give more options, not less. And vecause there is more options without removing previous options, it is an easier path.
Ya, you were not paying attention to that conversation very well, lol.
This isn’t an argument you’re just grasping at straws to find excuses.
This is once again not an argument, just the whining of someone that can’t bother having a real conversation with someone. It doesn’t matter what you think it is, this is what we have. Perhaps Classic WOTLK is not for you?
What complaints? Again you just throw out your opinion as fact without any basis. it’s like watching a two year old getting mad because they are losing an argument and throwing a tantrum.
You mean Scourgestones. Or do you mean the LFD reward (same as original) or the updated emblems to match the content (also from original). Make it make sense.
This is literally an unverifiable and unfalsifiable statement. It cannot be confirmed or denied in any way and is a pointlessly useless statement.
Except that H+ is simply more difficult content. If your argument is that no one cared about LFD heroics back in the day for GS, no one cares about it now. They care about it for raids and gammas, because both those are MORE DIFFICULT CONTENT. You keep intentionally leaving out raiding in your assessment because it completely counters your argument. Please find a new hobby.
No, player behavior is the same. More difficult content = more elistism from the players. It is not different. I’m just going to go back to ignoring you now since you are incapable of listening.
That’s a distinction without a point. It does not matter if H++ existed back in WOTLK or not. Did people care about gearscore in raids? Yes. What was the reason? The content was harder and they wanted to create select groups. Was the gearscore requirements arbitrary and silly? Yes.
All of those are the same as H++. It’s the SAME THING. They could remove Gammas TOMORROW and nothing would change about the player behavior. The only thing that would change is we would have less content. That’s it. If you don’t want to deal with toxic players GO DO REGULAR HEROICS. Nothing is stopping you. You’re just mad that gammas exist and nothing else because you are a liar.
No you didn’t. Raids were heavily gatekept back in the day too. I mean people didn’t even BEAT Lich King for most of the expansion. You think they are taking your weak undergeared alt along? The only way you were getting into raids was getting carried in guild alt runs.
It is additional content that rewards higher ilvl gear for lower investment. That is literally offering an easier path.
What is easier:
Try and pug a Naxx 25 or Uld 25 run
Do 5 man alphas and betas for drops and sidereal
No one is running those older raids. No one was running them back in the day either, except undergeared alts that failed the clears anyway. There’s a reason they added in the alphas, betas, and gammas. Do you think your full bis raid wants to keep coming back to the Ulduar and clearing every week JUST for you to get a single item that might not even drop because it hasn’t the entire time they have been doing it? No. They don’t.
So you either have your entire raid resent you, you resent your entire raid for not helping you, you get stuck in pugs and lose the rolls, or you are forced to spend all your gold in GDKP aiming for your one missing piece. Those are all terrible options.
But putting together a 5 man guild group and trashing through some alphas and betas or even gammas super easy, and it promotes social interactions.
Social interactions are not relegated exclusively to 25m raids.
H+ didn’t exist back in wrath originally so no player behavior is not the same as this model of dungeon literally did not exist.
Actually you are ignoring what I said about raiding.
See you literally ignored that I specifically have said people no duh cared about gear for raids. People did raids all the time as long as you have the appropriate gear, do heroics and you could start on Naxx, there were plenty of raids being run that took people in the appropriate gear. Because that was the main gearing path, ToC and ICC dungeons only marginally supplemented it.
H+ has killed that, as did the 2 badge system they switched to.
The difference is H+ coupled with the 2 badge system completely invalidates how gearing worked in wrath originally.
Assuming you aren’t just going to drop gold on BoE’s/GDKP. You used to do Heroics → Naxx → Ulduar+ToC 5 Man → TOC Raids+ICC Dungeons then ICC Raid.
Now you just do spam regular 5 mans till you hit 210 ilvl then spam Gammas till ICC ready.
It doesn’t matter if it did or not, players had the same mentality in harder content. You have a thick head.
H+ didn’t kill anything. Players optimizing did. This is the same stupid argument about classic failing. When Rag was killed on fresh 60s people lost their minds and said that Blizz ruined MC because the bosses were undertuned, only to get a slap of reality that in fact Vanilla was stupid easy, the players back then were atrociously bad, and private servers made changes to make the game more engaging for the optimizer players.
Player behavior has not changed that much, but what has changed is the tools available and the relative abilities of the players. Heroic LK super fast no buff. You’re never getting those terrible players back. The only raids you’re gonna find for old content are weekly runs or achievement runs, same as always, and they aren’t gonna take your trashcan alt either.
Considering all you seem to do on the forums is whine and complain about all the things Classic gets wrong, perhaps the common denominator is you.
Gearing in original wrath was terrible. If you got left behind it was just awful trying to catch up. And if you think people are bad in Gammas, oh boy imagine trying to bring your undergeared alt to an achievement run. You’re more likely to get perma denied runs and quit than you are to get into raids. You just have zero idea how player behavior works and are in denial about it.
So don’t bring your alt on an achievement run?
You bring your alt on a run with other alts/people doing badge runs.
for you to be a paladin, which is why the kicks are due, but try to arm yourself in beta or by doing pit, halls and forges for a 232.
In any case, there is nothing that can be done with the toxic community and its way of treating inexperienced players.
with resilience? It’s okay to do whatever it takes to get the GS and your ilvl, but cheat to have max exp? have some dignity.
Path is the same, unless you think gammas are hard? The difference between the raid being catchup gear and the instance being catchup gear is 50% less people and no real other requirements.
So yes, the only real difference is the social aspect, as stated.
To a singular suggestion that one guy againt bonerstorm is to be taken as the typical parse of blood tanks?
It doesnt though.
Its extra options not less.
No one in Wrath ran raids once they were more than a patch before. Naxx and Ulduar were empty (outside of the once-in-a-while weekly quest) by ICC. It’s just that people weren’t asking for as high as a gear score back then
I never said it was less options, H+ just invalidates how people geared in wrath originally. Those are two different things.
Maybe on your server, people on mine were running Naxx and Ulduar all the way up to Cata. Since those were the pve gearing options when there’s no H+ and no 2 tier badge system.
No.
The discussion was started when the frost dk did 7.7k dps had his logs attacked by the lvl 70 dk that likely doesnt even play classic.
He claimed the frost dk didn’t even use Pestilence, which logs proved he did.
Next he claimed the frost dk was doing “tank damage”. So the tanks from his raid on that 7.7k parse were brought up.
The lvl 70 dk claimed those tank logs dont count. So i found a 100 parse blood dk (the closest thing mechanically to a frost dk) to show that 7.7k dps was still above one of the best blood tank parses out there, to show that 7.7k wasnt “tank damage” but was noticeably above the damage of a tank as even one of the best tank logs out there was behind it. Then he complained that blood dk isnt the best tank and he linked the dps of the other 3 tank class/spec. Which still had 3/4 doing less dps than the 7.7k dps. All of these were very high parsed tanks, so hardly the average.
The only tank damage that beat that 7.7k dps was one of the best parses for the best damage output tank on that fight., and even that was only by a few hundred dps.
So his claim of that frost dk doing “tank damage” was also proved wrong with actual data as even using some of the best examples out there, the 3/4 tanks were still behind by 1k+ dps.
But he refuses to admit he is wrong on anything. Even discussions about raw stats he was claiming hit was not worth getting past 8% for a dk, which is also false. Its not the most attractive stat, but it isnt useless until passing 27% (or 24 depending on talents).
The lvl 70 dk has been wrong on basically every claim he has made in this thread. Math and actual data proves him wrong. But he refuses to accept he is wrong on anything.
It doesnt invalidate it though. You can still spam heroics for emblem of triumph gear. Then go to raid, or do gammas to farm scourge stone gear AND do raids.
It isnt invalidated at all, its just that there are more options.
Well for starters switching to a two badges system literally removes how running heroics worked and impacted gearing in original wrath.
And if you are running anything but gammas once you hit two 210 ilvl you are intentionally gimping your gearing. But sure it’s technically an option to keep running regular heroics or run older raids, I never said it wasn’t.
So who is filling these full 25m alt runs? You still don’t seem to understand how player behavior and population size works. You just insert “This thing happened in classic based on my unreliable memory therefor it’s always true all the time” and don’t consider that there are any variables to what you are trying to claim that creates a pain point.
There’s a reason why Vanilla Classic was a mess on launch, because when the mechanics of the game were designed for servers maxing out at 3000 total players, suddenly having 15k players made things very untenable.
Populations, distributions, and player behaviors evolve and change. And the way players play does too. It’s a nice fairytale land to live in where everything works out, but I promise if you were in charge wow would be dead in weeks.
Perfect. You have admitted that without gammas, your “pure” gearing strategy is gimped. Thanks for finally admitting it. Can we all move on now?