Watching this thread turn into an endless e-peen flex is amusing. To me it demonstrates how harmful and destructive adding Mythic dungeons to Wrath has been.
Imagine the Wrath dungeon experience devolving to this.
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Except the ongoing arguing and trash talking has had absolutely nothing to do with the Heroic+ dungeons. The confirmation bias is strong with you.
Both dungeon and Raids were like this in original Wrath. The moment Gearscore was added into the game and BiS lists were standardized primarily by tier and ilvl rather than stats and choices, people started to discriminate in groups because it was easier.
It also happened in Vanilla Classic too, but since itās harder to pull info from warcraft logs to screen people on it was less of an issue.
This has never been a discussion on what is best with this subject.
The discussion has been about him claiming a frost dk he was arguing with was doing ātank damageā with 7.7k dps.
I proved him wrong on what he is claiming is tank level dps by proving 7.7k is above one of the best tank parses for a dk, and he came back with data proving that only the best paladin tank parse beat that 7.7k. Which really proves my point as the best parses of 3/4 tanks are below that 7.7k dps, and the frost dk parse was a 56, so even then if we look at average tank dps, it is much farther from 7.7k
Basic math proves him wrong.
People wanted to claim they were carrying people, turns out they arent which we all knew.
Yes, the mythic+ lite dungeons were a detriment to the overall health of the game. People came in expecting Wrath and got reskinned retail lite.
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Blood dk tank is b tier at best, so thats a non sequitor.
Cant explain druid and paladin parses though?
Druid is still lower than 7.7k, as is dk and warrior tanks. Meaning the paladin is the outlier. On top of this we are comparing 100 parse tanks to a dps to see if said dps really did ātank damageā levels of dps. Considering he was 1-2k dps above some of the best parses for 3/4 possible tanks, and again this is tanks eith the highest parses being compared to a 56 parse frost dk.
So said frost dk wasnt doing tank damage. He was above tank damage by a good bit even when compared to some of the best tanks out there for 3/4 of those and still only lost to 1/4 by a few hundred dps.
So essentially, unless you are being extreamly elistist jerk about it, that 7.7k dps is not ātank damageā for this comparison, as the only way his damage is comparable to tank damage, is if you use the very top performing class and the very top parse of that class. Is that realy the bahvior you want to support and stand behind for this person?
In 5 mans
You are using raid parses for 5 mans. So, invalid comparison. But then again this argument is being made by someone who cant even find out pestilence was cast 10 times and claimed it was 0 times used, because you have horrible understanding of the most basic uses for logs.
Gaslight someone else. Not going to work on me. When it comes to original Wrath dungeon experience, Iām somewhat of an expert. No one cared about gearscore or your spec. Heroics were braindead, faceroll easy. As far as raidsā¦I canāt say.
Compared to this nonsense. Mythics have been a cancer to Wrath. And naturally the Classic team decides to do the same thing to Cata Classicā¦where Mythics are completely unnecessary. RDF was there from the start. The reward system kept dungeons relevant throughout the expansion. Absolutely no reason for these Mythics.
Other than the fact the Classic team is doing it to pad their resumes. Need to make #somechanges to try to justify their jobs. Who needs ādevsā to simply re-release content?
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solid 2,500 reply thread from OP, thank you for the entertainment
just scroll to random sections and peer in at all the weird interactions
I played in original wrath too. I had a different experience than you. Thatās how anecdotal evidence works. Donāt try and act like some victim and throw around therapy speak you donāt even understand. Itās not gaslighting, we had different experiences in original wotlk.
But I can. Raids were far worse back then. People wanted unreasonable gearscore and achievements. āLFM 10m Normal ICC, 6k gearscore and link 25m achievement.ā
Itās about the mindset. The mindset was absolutely there back in the day. There was definitely still people being goofy with gearscore for heroics, but it was mostly the ICC ones, and the gravity was lower. People still wanted gearscore, but not 5k gearscore. And thatās because there is higher tier content. itās more apparent the higher the difficulty goes. Thatās not Blizzardās fault, thatās the players.
Literally has nothing to do with Gammas and everything to do with players. Donāt like gammas, go do heroics. But the fact is that this happens REGARDLESS of the content, and itās entirely the players fault. This is a very ignorant argument to say that Blizzard shouldnāt include more content with more interesting mechanics just because PLAYERS are being stupid with elitism and toxicity.
Overall the changes have been very positively received from what I have seen, and this isnāt about padding anything, itās about creating new and interesting content that fits right in with the period of time the game is from. And Gammas did this PERFECTLY. Really excited to see more from the new seasons.
Dungeons didnt have the same requirements, especially just regular heroics.
Raids werent that bad either. I was asked for my gs once, was told it was kind of low but had an invite a few seconds later not a single person said anything once the gameplay started.
Most people just left HoR, and there was a higher Ilvl requirement to get these dungeons than there is now.
Blizzard shouldnt have introduced H+ because it wasnt in Wrath.
The changes havent been positively received, alphas were complained about by just about everyone, betas were said to be likee heroics, so whats the point of having a harder difficulty if its just like heroic while having a high gs requirement, and then you have gamma which most people avoid in favor of FoS daily runs.
The reason people did these difficulties was because of the increased emblems.
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H+ is 100% the issue with dungeons. Noone cared about gearscore for dungeons back in the day because it was a non issue.
H+ and their horrible affixes very much created the mentality in dungeons that they should be over geared.
Raids are obviously a different beast and there was always a reasonable expectation that you be geared for them. And of course without H+ raids remained part of the progression path where as now itās hit 80 and spam RDF and jump into gammas ASAP knowing you might have to deal with some toxic people.
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Iād say this depended entirely on your server. On the mega servers of the day, maybe so. On my backwater RP-PVE server (Blackwater Raiders), not so much.
This is called anecdotal evidence. Your individual experiences are not a representation of the whole and do not speak for everyone. I claim that there were crazy requirements back then on my server I experienced, you claim you didnāt have an issue, none of that matters and nothing changes.
What is objectively true however is the massive forum whining over how Gearscore was ruining the game because DING DING DING they were being excluded from groups. Sound familiar?
I disagree. Totally different argument. Not worth my time for your strawman. Itās not classic anymore, itās Classic+ deal with it.
Except me, my entire guild, all the people that have made posts saying how much they enjoy the new content. You really are bad at understanding that YOU are not a representation of everyone.
They did them for the rewards. Which is why people do heroics. And raids. Do you think that people would just run heroics for the fun of it? A few might. But the overwhelming majority of players do content for the rewards and benefits to them, not the content itself. Itās a good thing when the content is rewarding both in literal tangible rewards and also a good experience of gameplay.
No itās not, itās player behavior. Because itās still a thing in raids. Again this is being intentionally stupid about the situation and just straight up lying about the argument. If you donāt like H+ thatās fine, but donāt try and lie about a different argument because itās just easily disproven by the raids.
No, itās the fact that the content is harder, regardless of the mechanics. The mechanics could have literally been ANYTHING, as long as the content was harder people would be doing this. Thatās the point. And the proof is raiding. And H+ is OPTIONAL CONTENT. It didnāt replace anything. Heroics still exist. They still give emblems. They still reward everything they rewarded. So it sounds like a lot of people that want to do this new content and are mad because they are bad.
Because they were HARDER CONTENT. You donāt get to handwave away the counter to your entire argument just because you think it should be counted differently. Raids are harder, therefor they have a greater requirement. Thatās WHY.
As opposed to what it was back in the day, which was spam heroics/buy crafted gear, try and get into raids, get denied and deal with toxic people. H+ added a better progression path to more easily get into raids. Imagine if you didnāt have access to doing the stepping stone content.
Yes it absolutely did. And I didnāt say every server was like that, I said that mine was. And my argument was that it DID happen, not that it happened for everyone.
Just like how people in this thread keep telling each other their experience with toxic groups and getting kicked isnāt true because of their experiences, they can both have different experiences and there still be an issue with player behavior. An issue that has always been part of the game, and always existed as far back as wotlk.
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H+ did not provide an easier path, it provided a lower social interaction system to boost gear, because not everyone has time to raid.
Also, this crap all started at the latter end of TBC, where hard reserves and min items were required to even do heroics.
Maybe your battlegroup and server was bad. But the one I was in it wasnāt rampant like you are suggesting.
Itās classic. You renaming it to suit your retail wants is disingenuous.
Guess you donāt know what most means. Your experience doesnāt invalidate all the complaints about it.
The rewards were the increased emblems.
I went blue and also carried ppl with trash gear, never got kicked. I did well my job
No itās intentionally lying to claim that GS was remotely cared about in RDF back in the day. Noone cared about it because it was literally a non issue not worth thinking about. H+, which didnāt exist back in the day, changes that as the affixes are not fun and people want to get in and out ASAP.
This is a major gameplay change which obviously affects player behavior, itās not just herp derp thatās how people are.
Yeah no freaking duh and because H+ is harder than regular heroics they, wait for it, also have higher gear requirements.
The obvious difference is that H+ didnāt exist back in the day and raids did.
Raids were the stepping stone content. Instead of just spamming RDF you did your heroic daily, TOC/ICC dungeons when you could have mixed in raids.
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Okay, so for a finale wrap up.
210 is fine for gammas, unless youre trash, then expect the boot.
Blood dk tanks can parse well, but no where near what top tier can do.
Everyones a troll, because the other person said so.
Benediction is actually a sesspool.
Dont talk smack if you grey parse as a holy paladin.