you still didn’t put in significal stats difference of players, between the starting of gamma and beta.
Also, the buff is all about increasing dmg / healing output but not any mitigation / avoidance, while adds/boss still get higher dmg output could lead to some deadly situations (for low geared)
It didn’t mean there 's the same difficulty of gamma and beta for a specific ilvl group of players.
That’s the problem. They cant just move on. They have to wait 30minutes. If they allowed a single kick without the debuff but put on an increasing time deserter debuff, that would be better. Sometimes getting kicked as you join a group happens but getting kicked multiples times from groups are not usually gear related so deserter debuff should start to increase (if within a certain time period like if through 12 hours you are kicked 3 times, the third time will give you the deserter buff of thirty minutes whereas the second kick would only give you 15minutes or something along those lines).
totally agree with your opinion.
Put smt like increasing deserter debuff is more reasonable, maybe like (5 - 10 - 30 - 60 mins) after get kicked within 24 hours window (last until next day dungeon reset)
That’s not really a factor in difficulty as an objective metric. Regardless of the gear of the players, there’s a relative difficulty. The only thing gear determines is the spectrum upon which someone can sit, since anyone can be overgeared or undergeared in relation to the content and what we are really concerned about in this thread is relative to other “easier” forms of content, does gamma prove a more difficult or less difficult content.
Because if you’re going to say low gear = do easier content but then objectively speaking gammas and betas are equally difficult, there’s not really much weight to that requirement. And then it’s more about personal performance and value.
But this is really outside of the scope barring some specific metric. For instance, if there are mechanics in beta that hit for 10k and the same mechanics hit for 25k in gamma, and the average health of a player in general is 20k then yes, that changes things drastically. But there needs to be a specific “You can eat mechanics in beta but not in gamma” argument for that to apply and as far as my subjective view with limited research goes, I haven’t seen one.
My understanding is that the deserter debuff is not being applied consistently. Some get it and some don’t. And that’s a real big issue to me personally. I think similar to the punishment for consistent and repeated vote to kicks that there also be a scaling punishment with getting kicked. Get kicked once, even at the start, no debuff. Habitually get kicked from runs at some threshold, get a debuff. Or as you said one that increases over time.
Of course it wouldn’t be applied consistently. I should have realized that nothing is consistent when it comes to anything blizzard related haha.
But yes 100% agree. A kick one time is an outlier. Getting kicked multiple times usually means it’s a pattern unless you are just somehow super unlucky.
Well what I mean is, I think that the debuff is based on WHEN you get kicked. If you are kicked early on you get it, and if you are kicked based on time in the group you don’t.
Ah I see. I guess that makes sense but also doesn’t make sense. Why would getting kicked immediately give the debuff but time in the dungeon doesn’t where they could be actually trolling with mobs and getting people killed? Seems strange to me.
I can’t totally agree with you about it.
generally it’s the same that the different between normal togc raid and heroic togc raid. Did it mean the normal and heroic togc raid difficulty to be on par?
Likely because it’s based on the desserter debuff for leaving too. If you leave early you get a 30 minutes timer, if you leave later you only get a short delay.
The difference between normal raids and heroic raids is:
Boosts to players: None
Negatives to players: Additional mechanics, higher stats on enemies
The difference between Beta and Gamma dungeons:
Boosts to players: Sunreaver Buffs
Negatives to players: Higher enemy stats
In a raid setting players are tasked with additional mechanics AND higher stats with no trade off for counterbalance. it’s just objectively harder always.
In Gammas players only have to deal with higher stats, but ALSO get a buff to counter those higher stats. So the margin is much much smaller.
Getting kicked immediately shouldnt give a debuff timer, if Blizzard took that suggestion and implemented it then Blizzard would be a trolling people and get a ton of backlash. It would be stupid for have someone to wait in the queue, then enter the dungeon, then get kicked and have to wait 30 minutes but someone that trolls on a mid boss gets nothing… just dumb.
Nope, you said easy and competent
Again, leads me to believe you were carried if difficultly isnt an option for you.
in TOGC, there 's not much significal additional mechanics except Champions and Anub. Mostly is stat and dmg buff.
Boss Health increased about 20~40%
While if you compare gamma and beta:
Adds/Boss Health increased about 60~120%
Assuming you have all the buff uptime (which not reality with low gear), the group dmg output increases 30~40%
Yes it should. Otherwise people would, through bad behavior, coerce the group into kicking them to avoid the debuff.
Lol just got kicked for the 3rd time in UP. Idiot group kept dying to the icy slip n slide and the dragon riding boss’s ice breath.
Ahh well; always funny when they think it’s the lack of healing.
More gear won’t fix this.
No it shouldnt.
Ok? Is TOGC the only raid? I wonder why a raid with only 5 bosses would have a significant difference in mechanics only on half of the bosses? Because that’s pretty standard. Some fights are easy even on heroic but raids are done in totality. Yea you can swap back and forth, but what we’re really talking about are the fights that matter.
Why would you not? Even with low gear, the buffs have internal cooldowns and it’s very easy to hit their full uptime requirements. The only real impact is to the tank, which is also dependent on class. DKs and druids get less out of the thorns than paladins or warriors.
These numbers are wildly inaccurate.
Let’s use UP as a standard since it’s easy (FYI every dungeon has it’s own modifier, so different dungeons have different stat changes)
Beta is 40% damage and 120% health increase.
Gamma is 70% damage and 215% health increase.
So on average people are taking somewhere between 15-30% more damage (because calculations get a little funky when considering mitigation) and enemies have a lot more health.
Let’s use Gortok as our baseline since again I am lazy and this is easy.
He has 431,392 health on heroic.
That’s 949,062 in beta.
And 1,358,884 in gamma.
Overall health increase is 409,822 (43% increase in health)
So let’s say that an average group in betas for beta is going to be doing around 3k dps on patchwerk style fights. And a tank at 40% of that dps at 1200 dps. That’s a TTK of 93 seconds.
So then what we would need to match that same TTK in gamma for the same type of comp, 3 full dps and one 40% from the tank is:
4298 dps
1719 tank
So as long as your dps in gammas are pulling around 4k dps, they are roughly equivalent to a 3k dps from beta. And it’s not hard to see them pull 4k with the debuff. I myself as a 5k frost DK hit 6k dps on bosses, and was doing 4500-5k in gammas (depending on the gamma) at 4300 gearscore.
So again, if you’re optimizing your gear even at low gear levels and performing, you’re not going to really feel the increased requirements from a dps. You might from a tank and healer, but those are ALWAYS going to be the valves that feel the pressure.
Ive seen people get 1 shot just from the breath alone. It bugs out sometimes and will hit like 6-8 times within a second or less.
Would have been nice if Blizzard spent time fixing the bugs in classic that werent there in OG Wrath instead of wasting time on these mythic plus lite dungeons.
HoR not giving loot which is still happening, the HH mount is bugged and when you jump with it in like stormwind it ragdolls and clips through the ground, Forgemaster Garfrost boulders not landing or not being thrown at all, Frost Breath bugging out sometimes and im sure im missing some more. But they just sit on their hands like usual.
How does this work exactly? They afk at the start of the dungeon they just queued for hoping they are kicked in the first 30 seconds? This seems even LESS likely than elitists kicking low gearscore players. What exactly is the scenario where someone is kicked within the first 1-2 minutes of a dungeon in which their behavior would warrant a kick from the group but not some other punishment from another system?
And one in which this behavior wouldn’t also lead to kicks later in the run where they don’t receive the debuff, since the debuff is only when kicked immediately.