11/14/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Ariëlestimulating for my brain
11/14/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Ariëlne
11/14/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Ariëlboeibg
11/14/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Ariëlaparently
11/14/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Ariëlestimulating
11/14/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Ariëlsociopathic ways
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The two sides lost the same number of zones: one. There is now fighting in other zones, but if the war tables are to be believed it is the Alliance that is largely on the counter-offensive. This is supported by what is happening with the next patch, with fighting in Darkshore and Dar'Zalor.
The Alliance and Horde both took out a zone and a capital. It's true that the Alliance failed in Anduin's declared victory condition in Lordaeron, but that's because his stated goal was the removal of Sylvanas. But they still razed the zone and forced the Horde to blow up their own city. The Horde didn't manage to get the win they were looking for either.
Don't tell me taking out Undercity (not to mention reclaiming Stromgarde) haven't been Alliance fantasies since Vanilla. In all that time, did we see a single thread with Horde players pining to destroy...Teldrassil?
At the cost of massive casualties. As I wrote about previously, in this thread, the developers are trying to show that the Alliance lost massive numbers of troops there, so much so that had Anduin been in a modern military he would have been bounced out for negligence. Blizzard, as I noted with the Twitch announcement, also have stated it was an Alliance loss. When combined with the Blizzcon statement means that that this was a null-event (loss for both parties).
11/14/2018 04:42 PMPosted by Carmageddon...
At the cost of massive casualties. As I wrote about previously, in this thread, the developers are trying to show that the Alliance lost massive numbers of troops there, so much so that had Anduin been in a modern military he would have been bounced out for negligence. Blizzard, as I noted with the Twitch announcement, also have stated it was an Alliance loss. When combined with the Blizzcon statement means that that this was a null-event (loss for both parties).
Where is it actually stated that the Alliance lost massive casualties, like, say, more than the Horde, at Undercity?
In the recent cinematic we learn that Stormwind has taken massive casualties in the war, but there have been many fronts. And we can also assume that the Horde has taken similar casualties, given that the Alliance is still able to launch a major offensive (and, again, if the war table is to be believed have been launching most of the offensives since Teldrassil).
We are outright told that the Alliance is on the verge of winning the entire war, so much so that some Horde characters are talking about suing for peace...but according to this thread, the Alliance never gets any wins. How does that compute? How is the Alliance on the verge of winning the entire thing, then?
11/14/2018 04:42 PMPosted by Carmageddon...
At the cost of massive casualties. As I wrote about previously, in this thread, the developers are trying to show that the Alliance lost massive numbers of troops there, so much so that had Anduin been in a modern military he would have been bounced out for negligence. Blizzard, as I noted with the Twitch announcement, also have stated it was an Alliance loss. When combined with the Blizzcon statement means that that this was a null-event (loss for both parties).
Where is it actually stated that the Alliance lost massive casualties, like, say, more than the Horde, at Undercity?
In the recent cinematic we learn that Stormwind has taken massive casualties in the war, but there have been many fronts. And we can also assume that the Horde has taken similar casualties, given that the Alliance is still able to launch a major offensive (and, again, if the war table is to be believed have been launching most of the offensives since Teldrassil).
We are outright told that the Alliance is on the verge of winning the entire war, so much so that some Horde characters are talking about suing for peace...but according to this thread, the Alliance never gets any wins. How does that compute? How is the Alliance on the verge of winning the entire thing, then?
11/14/2018 04:49 PMPosted by SaiphasThe framing of the Alliance post BfL is massive numbers of coffins littering SW Harbor, and yes more than the Horde lost. (seeing as I don't recall Orgrimmar having coffins littering the place. The decisive Alliance turning point is 1) Tyrande's invocation of the Nightwarrior, coupled with the 2) Battle for Dezar'alor. Prior to this, the Horde is on the rise, with the Alliance forces on their backfoot, as evidenced by Sylvanas' quest start text at the beginning of 8.2
Jellex, I regret that I have only one upvote to give your detailed and thoughtful post.
To our Alliance-playing friends, I ask: if you mained Horde, what would you see as a win during this entire expansion? We won the campaign in Darkshore, but that was totally tainted by what happened at the end - Horde players never gave a fig about Teldrassil, and I think a clear majority were horrified at the narrative that we had enabled a monstrous war crime. Other than that there have been a bunch of draws or outright losses. We didn't get to reclaim a legendary stronghold of our faction. None of our leaders have done anything heroic; our cinematics don't have the upwelling music and dramatic conquest of, say, Jaina at Undercity or Malfurion in Darkshore.
No, we get the villain soundtrack. We get one of the greatest heroes of the Horde and most popular characters in the game telling us that our actions are without honour, and choosing to sit in jail (or work with the Alliance) rather than be part of the Horde. We get yet another "the Horde is divided" plots. We get a leader (who I used to love!) reduced to a parody of a super villain who is actively poisoning the planet and burning children as part of a war against "hope."
I know some folks picked Horde because they wanted the "Rawr smash!" faction. But it sure seems like most of us picked it because we bought into Blizzard's claim that we, too, could play as heroes, even if of a less pure sort than the Alliance.
But we get to play as stooges and losers, instead. Fun plot, Blizzard.
11/14/2018 05:27 PMPosted by Jellexbecause the Alliance has already undone half of the Horde's war efforts by stealing the Tide Scepter back
11/14/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Carmageddonif you mained Horde, what would you see as a win during this entire expansion?
11/14/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Saiphas8.1 is set as a role reversal. I absolutely agree that given the narrative tone of the Horde Zandalar quests this feel incongruous. Yes, it does not feel like the Horde is winning to you, and that is a problem, one I think is compounded by the nature in which the Horde gained the advantage and the subsequent second order effects that entails.
However, there is no real question that the Horde did suffer less casualties. While the remainder of the Alliance was able to get out before Lordaeron blew, the Alliance was routed prior to Jaina showing up. The casualties from the initial blight are framed to be massive on the Alliance side.
Yes, but what makes you think that our entire war effort isn't going to be countered in the upcoming patches?
we had our victory, but clearly we can't win the war yet or so soon.
11/14/2018 05:58 PMPosted by Jellex11/14/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Saiphas8.1 is set as a role reversal. I absolutely agree that given the narrative tone of the Horde Zandalar quests this feel incongruous. Yes, it does not feel like the Horde is winning to you, and that is a problem, one I think is compounded by the nature in which the Horde gained the advantage and the subsequent second order effects that entails.
However, there is no real question that the Horde did suffer less casualties. While the remainder of the Alliance was able to get out before Lordaeron blew, the Alliance was routed prior to Jaina showing up. The casualties from the initial blight are framed to be massive on the Alliance side.
This is good information. I didn't realize that the Alliance side narrative framed things like this - although I suppose that's to be expected. Mostly, though, my objection is with the framing of the narrative to this point; I would be more comfortable with a 'role reversal' if we'd felt like were winning for all of 8.0, but it's been the opposite. That's why there's been so much complaining, I think; we're being told it's our time to lose because we've been winning, but the Horde experience has felt like anything but winning.
11/14/2018 06:02 PMPosted by SaiphasI also thing something Carmaggedon wrote should be explored more, that is the lack of Heroic moments from Horde Heroes. I am thinking of doing a deep dive over the weekend on how/why we as a community have really prioritized "hero" moments from NPCs as important aspects of the narrative. The Horde's LACK of these is a major issue.
11/14/2018 06:11 PMPosted by Jellex11/14/2018 06:02 PMPosted by SaiphasI also thing something Carmaggedon wrote should be explored more, that is the lack of Heroic moments from Horde Heroes. I am thinking of doing a deep dive over the weekend on how/why we as a community have really prioritized "hero" moments from NPCs as important aspects of the narrative. The Horde's LACK of these is a major issue.
That's a good point. I'd be interested to see where you take that. Off the top of my head, I can think of two points:
1. The Horde has lost a LOT of the heroes it had in the faction, and the ones that remained were never developed when there was time to do so. Someone appropriate for a "Hero moment" like, say, Rommath, Liadrin, or even !@#$%^- Baine, have languished without development for years. I also think the realization that the Horde hero pool is so thin is both what drives the stretched characterization of Voss, Garona, and Rexxar, and why Valtrois is getting so much air time.
2. Related to point 1, because the Horde's leadership roster is so thin, our story has become the Sylvanas & Nathanos Show. Even at their best, these two are not particularly "heroic". They can be "badass" when used correctly, but when overused (Nathanos especially) reduce all the Horde's character moments to snarky villainy... which has been compounded by Blizzard's decision to bring out the villain sledgehammer.
11/14/2018 05:58 PMPosted by JellexThe Blizzcon 8.2 teasers make it seem like there's both a hard swing towards Naga (no faction war) and a tripling down on Sylvanas villainy. If this is the direction they're moving the plot, then where's the room for the Horde counterattack?
11/14/2018 06:51 PMPosted by SaiphasAt Blizzcon they state the War Campaign is still on going in 8.2, with it centering on Sylvanas, Anduin and Jaina. My hope is it means the NEs get to have the confrontation with Azshara as it should be.
11/14/2018 06:54 PMPosted by Jellex11/14/2018 06:51 PMPosted by SaiphasAt Blizzcon they state the War Campaign is still on going in 8.2, with it centering on Sylvanas, Anduin and Jaina. My hope is it means the NEs get to have the confrontation with Azshara as it should be.
This reads to me like it will be about the conclusion of the Derek nonsense, which I wish would just go away already. T_T
11/14/2018 06:45 PMPosted by Etheldald11/14/2018 05:58 PMPosted by JellexThe Blizzcon 8.2 teasers make it seem like there's both a hard swing towards Naga (no faction war) and a tripling down on Sylvanas villainy. If this is the direction they're moving the plot, then where's the room for the Horde counterattack?
a valid fear, but i think that the naga are just going to be a minor distraction.
i really doubt that we are going to shift from the war theme so soon.
hell, i can even see an alliance city raided in 8.3.
11/14/2018 06:56 PMPosted by DroitéYeah, by the looks of that "Ship Graveyard" both factions find themselves in, I wouldn't be shocked if its largely comprised of Kul Tiras ships. 8.1 is the Alliance counterattack; 8.2 is the Naga entry (though I would be shocked if Azshara died, she doesn't seem the type to sacrifice an Empire for a Palace); so I wouldn't be surprised if the Horde uses the advantage of 8.1 and 8.2 to hit the already very stretched thin Alliance somewhere where it really hurts.
11/14/2018 07:01 PMPosted by Jellex11/14/2018 06:56 PMPosted by DroitéYeah, by the looks of that "Ship Graveyard" both factions find themselves in, I wouldn't be shocked if its largely comprised of Kul Tiras ships. 8.1 is the Alliance counterattack; 8.2 is the Naga entry (though I would be shocked if Azshara died, she doesn't seem the type to sacrifice an Empire for a Palace); so I wouldn't be surprised if the Horde uses the advantage of 8.1 and 8.2 to hit the already very stretched thin Alliance somewhere where it really hurts.
This doesn't really feel very good either, though. Where's the #factionpride in needing a third party to attack your enemy before you can land a blow? Basically, this would just continue the theme of making the Horde look weak in a "can't win in a straight fight" fashion, meaning that we'd continue to be the faction of sneak attacks, atrocities, and superweapon macguffins. I for one do not wish for such a future.