Chronicles gives us maps of the general lay of the land prior to the sundering…
And some have come after to try and see how that overlaps with present day Kailmdor/Northrend/Eastern Kingdoms…
Here’s a later map AFTER humans and later, the Elves, arrive…
Vyrkul originated in what is now Northrend. They/their human descendents came to Trisfal Glades later, which is very much well within the boundaries of Amani/forest troll territory. The idea that there were no trolls there when they arrived, and the trolls came down out of the north to attack them after the fact doesn’t seem well supported.
That is fair enough. Though Dun Morogh is an… Interesting topic.
We don’t know why the Frostmane left the Drakkari Empire, but it seems to have been the result of the Sundering. If they are left stranded in a frozen, mountainous area with no way back it paints them in a pretty difficult situation.
Plus the World of Warcraft bestiary does state that the Frostmane were the rulers of Dun Morogh before the dwarves emerged. I don’t know how that aligns with Chronicles lore. Do you have any excerpts that disproves the bestiary article?
I did not claim you claimed you were holier than anyone. I said you that aren’t, not that you claimed it.
You mocked Night Elves even when it wasn’t in response to Trolls being mocked. You were the first one to post in this thread, for example, before any comments about Trolls could even be made:
Night Elf civil war is mocking? I genuinely would like to see a civil split amongst the Night Elves because they shouldn’t all be accepting peace as a race. The story even hints to that possibility.
That’s mocking Night Elves? I think you need thicker skin my friend if that comes across as mocking to you. I guess BfA was mocking the Zandalari because they had a civil war?
I never took people posting “All Land is Troll Land” as a genuine argument on their part. At least, not in the case of those making actual arguments regarding land rights.
I mean, where do we draw the line? Old Gods? Elementals? Titans? Who counts as descendants for purposes of said land rights? Azerothian races are a mess of magical corruption, alien involvement, unnatural evolution/devolution.
I mean, sure, have fun rah-rahing for your favorites, but let’s not pretend there’s an actual, dead to rights claim on the vast majority of land.
I saw the passages. They don’t say there were no trolls when they arrived. It just kind of ignores them. They don’t bear what’s on the maps. And additionally, it continues with keep in line with the book’s general portrayal of trolls, tendency to dismiss them as dark savages and anyone who kills them as brave and noble…
Chronicles pg127.
Eventually the maps above look like this…
Honestly, the whole thing looks and reads like a retelling of the settling of >insert continent here< by a European power from the perspective of the victors.
We should argue about stuff that gets people to post chronicles maps and excerpts more often. If I could figure out how to trigger that response, I’d totally do it.
The opposite, really. The passage gives a description of where the Arathi territories are that the maps do not take into account. The Arathi had to worry about the Amani coming in from the north, east, and - based on where they build Tharodin’s wall in relation to Strom - the west as well. The Arathi had them surrounded. The maps both reflect this and omit this at the same time.
Of the maps, I am taking a look at them myself to see how things like up. I’ll post on them as soon as I can.
I’m not the one who’s anti the mentality. If people want to poke fun at Trolls, I’ll poke fun back. I don’t think it’s that serious nor is it a big deal. It takes but a few seconds out of my day.
At least for my part I mostly use it in jest in the same way an orc fan might shout “LOK’TAR OGAR” or an elf fan might shout “Trolls are filthy savages. We should kill them all!”
There is a bit of a kernel of truth to “All land is troll land” in that much of the world was mapped out and settled by trolls once, but I don’t really advocate for actually kicking out every other race from what was once troll land. That’d be silly.
I just wish people would acknowledge that trolls got a raw deal and didn’t try to morally justify the mass slaughter and conquest of their territories just because they are “primitive and violent”.
Basically I just want some of that sweet, sweet pathos the night elves tend to get any time something terrible happens to them.
I am the own who is against the mentality indeed, and am against the notions both Nowise and you brought up that people shouldn’t care about the Trolls or Teldrassil.
Prior to Vyrkul/human arrival, there was indeed open land in what’s now in the Eastern Kingdoms: around the area where Dun Morrogh, the Badlands, and Burning Stepe are.
But the humans didn’t settle or expand into those areas.
After that, the pattern is clear. The green areas demarcating Amani territory decreases, replaced increasingly by parts of the map where the human and elven kingdoms now sit.
Same when we start looking south, as human and dwarves start expanding into areas previously held by the Gurubashi.
Once again, what is more important is the timeline of the defeat of Kith’ix by Tyr which lead to Kith’ix ending up in Zandalar, and only after the Trolls woke Kith’ix up again and the Aqir War did the Amani settle in the lands to the east.
