I am also against both notions. It’s a tongue and cheek comment. I think most people who read it and what it’s in response to would know that.
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Then we have no issues between us.
Oh yeah, there’s definitely a certain narrative disregard for the Trolls as a whole. If you just played the game straight, there was never much there to defend the Trolls’ position, particularly in the early years of WoW.
Of course, Troll history in WoW is rife with their own aggression and atrocity. There aren’t really good guys here- not that anyone is making that impossible argument. …I mean except the Tauren. Outside the Grimtotem, are Tauren anything other than the good guys, particularly in their ancient history? I honestly can’t think of anything.
But back on topic, the first real, “everyone will see this” narrative bit I remember that made a good argument for the Trolls was, ironically enough, for one of those times when we were going to waltz into their home and kill them for lootz.
(remastered version, because these guys did amazing work)
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Oh nice, I’ve never seen the remastered version. This was my favorite cinematic from BC.
And yah, this is definitely one of the first pieces of media that really showcased the Amani and how they feel. The scene of Zul’jin getting his eye cut out is surprisingly visceral even without showing the gore.
For me I’ve always felt sympathy for Zul’jin and the Amani. My first WoW book was Tides of Darkness and I immediately took a liking to Zul’jin and the trolls. They were really the only Horde figures in that book that seemed entirely justified in what they were doing which added a moral complexity to the Horde vs Alliance struggle that made the book compelling to me.
All that just made the Zul’Aman cinematic even more impactful on me, but also left me pretty darn bitter that I was expected to side against him in the raid.
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The game is really weird in that regard, they mostly tell you to kill anything and ignore the feelings of the other party or that your character is just a hobo that kills for the fun of it and the opponent is just hit with a villain bat to make it more “righteous” to kick him in the ground (just look at the 2 factions war we got)
Oh the death of Zul’jin, how sad it was to seeing it, but unfortunately people didn’t care much until many years after Blizzard started to give them real development beyond of dungeon fodder(which funny enough Dark Irons has that in common)
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Yes. Amani settled the east after Tyr was defeated by Kithi’ix, and humans came even later. And elves later still. The Vyrkul that remained at Tyr’s hand did not stay there to become humans or build a kingdom or expand into surrounding lands. The ones that would become humans and do all that came from Northrend.
But how does this apply others being continually justified (or lauded) in killing trolls and resettling the lands in which they lived, while trolls who do the same -or even just resist- are vilified?
Edit: Thanks for the note.
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Small correction. Tyr was defeated by Kith’ix and another C’Thraxxi (though Tyr took one of them with him). The Amani hunted Kith’ix down later and killed him, then built their capitol on the battle site.
So you’re welcome humanity. Trolls avenged your fallen god.
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This is definitely one of my favorite patch cinematics of all time.
- You wanna stay stay? You stay here forever.
We gonna bury you here.
I love this delivery so much.
As I referred to you before:
To further specify, earlier, on Page 63:
- Despite facing hopeless odds, the keeper of justice had nearly killed both C’Thraxxi. The survivor, Kith’ix, had only narrowly fled to the west. It would not be seen again for many thousands of years.
In honor of her fallen comrade, Ironaya named the glade surrounding the crater “Tyr’s Fall,” which in the vrykul tongue translated to “Tirisfal.” She and her follower buried Tyr and his foe where they lay. They placed Tyr’s massive silver hand atop his final resting place as a memorial to his valiant sacrifice.
Although all of the refugees would carry on the story of Tyr’s noble sacrifice, the vrykul in particular felt compelled to do something more. They were so moved by the keeper’s deeds that they decided to settle at the battle site and stand vigil over Tyr’s grave until the end of their days.
So the Vrkul that would turn into humans had settled there thousands of years before the Trolls even woke Kith’ix back up, let alone hunted him down, as covered by Pages 72-73:
- Meanwhile, the Amani had set out to destroy Kith’ix. They tracked the C’Thrax’s trail far to the northeastern woodlands, cutting through an unending mass of aqiri guardians. In a final savage battle, the entire tribe flung itself in a suicidal attack against Kith’ix and its remaining insectoid minions. Only a tiny fraction of the troll army survived. Even so, the C’Thrax succumbed to is tireless hunters.
Though the cost was high, the fearsome reputation of the Amani became legend among the other troll tribes. Atop the site where they had killed Kith’ix, the trolls established a new settlement. It would one day grow into a sprawling temple city known as Zul’Aman.
As for the maps, this is what I was able to put together for myself. Overlapping all the maps and getting all the location to overlap properly turned out too difficult, so here are comparisons of locations and landmarks:
https://i.imgur.com/OMu9tPI.gif
The top most circles are Lordamere Lake, the middle circle is the mountains between the Hinterlands and Arathi, and the lowest circle is the Swamp of Sorrows.
Notably, Zul’Aman used to be at the edge of Darrowmere Lake, and I do not know why they relocated after the Sundering.
What I have is the map above, that the Drakkai Empire had no holdings in that area, and that neither the Amani nor Gurubashi did, either.
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We can’t just assume the high elves knew about gilneas just because malfurion went there that one time. That was secret druid business, considering malfurion didn’t want people to know about the worgen form so other druids don’t try to use that form.
The maps also don’t show any Vrykul or human controlled territories within the Amani Empire even though you’ve clearly shown the Vrykul were in Tirisfal for a long time.
The maps seem to be a bit unreliable when it comes to smaller groups living in more secluded areas.
We have lore that explicitly states the Frostmane were in control of Dun Morogh prior to the dwarves arriving. We need new lore that explicitly states the opposite before we can assume there was a retcon.
Even if we assume the high elves were entirely ignorant about the huge landmass that is Gilneas (and Kul Tiras which they likely would’ve sailed passed on their way to Tirisfal) and that none of the humans they lived with for years ever mentioned it, while at the same time somehow being aware of Quel’Danas and the lands where they wanted to found Quel’thalas, they still would have had the option to travel south to Arathi and try to live peacefully with the humans they were already on good terms with.
Also there’s this tidbit from The Founding of Quel’thalas.
Sounds a lot like they happened across the Broken Shore and possibly the southern shores of Northrend along their way too.
The Highborne had options aside from slaughtering the Amani trolls and stealing their land. It wasn’t an act of desperation. It was an act of greed fueled by their desire to create a really powerful Sunwell on top a leyline cross-section to give them immense arcane powers.
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This is true. The maps at best show the Night Elves populating those areas before the Sundering. Chronicle doesn’t state anything about the Frostmane by name. The closest reference I can find is on page 125 with Gnomes encountering Ice Trolls five-hundred years before the Dwarves woke up:
- The first generation of gnomes carved out an existence in the snowy mountains to the west of Uldaman. Lacking natural strength and defenses, the frail gnomes struggled to survive amid the harsh elements, barbaric ice trolls, and other threats the roamed the land. They did, however, retain their natural intellect and ingenuity. As generations passed, the gnomes dedicated themselves to technological advancements and discovery; these would be their only means of sustaining themselves in the savage new world. To this end, the gnomes eschewed record keeping and oral storytelling, considering them immaterial to survival.
In only a few generations, the gnomes lost all knowledge of their titan-forged heritage. What they gained, however, was a new society. Their ingenious engineering and sciences had helped them overcome hardship after hardship. The gnomes carved out a series of highly fortified dwellings deep within the cold mountains of what would become known as Dun Morogh.
The Dwarves woke up five-hundred years later and met up with the Gnomes, but there’s no mention of Trolls in their section. Which isn’t to say they weren’t there or that they weren’t toppled. But rather that it didn’t seem to be notable Troll history like the Amani Troll Wars before the Dwarves woke up or the Gurubashi Civil War after.
There’s some confusion here.
The Vrykul that followed Tyr face Kith’ir are not the ones that became humans.
The bulk of the Vrykul that followed Tyr continued on south to what is now Ulduar. Only a token force remained at the site of Tyr’s Fall to honor his memory. But they did not build an actual kingdom or spawn humans. They were a remote and essentially hidden village.
Humans came much later, as explained on page 65 and 66.
Basically, some time later, Dragonflayer Vrykul started giving birth to stunted offspring and, not wanting them to be killed, set off for this “fairy tail refuge” and left them there. Then, over actual generations, those stunted Vrykul became humans. And then even later those humans started becoming tribes and started to expand.
You do see the parts of your map that are all green, right? All around that one singular site where a handful of Vyrkul (that are not the forebearers of humanity) lived?
Those green parts are where the Amani and Zandalari lived. The brown parts indicate no real established settlements.
The humans didn’t get first dibs on all that land. Trolls did. Humans started expanding after the fact, found trolls were already all around them, found out the trolls didn’t want them expanding into their lands, and so they started to kill them and take the land.
Which is a thing that happened.
But it’s not so much the thing that happened that’s the issue. People migrate. Populations expand. Wars happen. Nations rise and fall.
The issue is the framing. Trolls are repeatedly set up as this savage, violent, backwards race with no real redeeming qualities that ruled huge chunks of the world- but never really deserved to and never knew what to do with it.
Then later, Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and other races start to rise and begin slowly wiping them off the map. And it’s played as the expansionists being a good and brave and doing what they need to do in the face of primitive violent isolationists.
But what’s bad? When the trolls actually resist.
For them to not accept their annihilation and removal from lands they settled before any of these relative latecomers is not played up a heroic thing. Or an ironic thing. Or much of a tragic thing. Or even a neutral thing. They’re generally villains at best and nuisances to be eradicated at best.
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It’s still put before the Amani expanded across what becomes Lordaeron, though.
Also, the bulk, if not all, of the vrykul stayed in Tirisfal, they did not go south to Uldama.
Archaedas and Ironya honoured the vrykul’s wishes to settle the lands of Tirisfal. The Keeper and Giantess continued south with the earthen and mechagnomes in tow.
-page 63
They settled Tirisfal, the region was their hidden refuge the later stories speak of, not some village.
The Frostmane are said to have lived in DUn Morogh. I don’t take that to mean they just had a small presence, I take that to mean they lived across that region, just as I take ‘settle the lands of Tirisfal’ to mean the entire region.
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No, it’s mentioned the stunted creatures would one day become Humans. And how they’d surprise the Old Gods and their minions with how amazing they’re going to be.
BUT in the meantime, the Old Gods and their minions are dealing with this “immediate danger” in the form of some savage race called trolls. And later passages go on to describe the rise and expansion of the troll empires on pages 68+.
Then it comes back around to primitive humans after they’ve become a thing and have enough numbers to start forming their own tribes and settlements.
Edit: Given how much this whole thing seems to paralel the settling of the Americas, I’m willing to bet the Vrykul at Tyr’s Hand are could be analogous to the Vikings that settled Newfoundland centuries before the rest of the Europeans began colonization of the Americas en masse.
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That’s… still their ancestors. Just because they weren’t humans themselves doesn’t mean they were not the ancestors of humanity, and they lived among the vrykul that initially settled Tirisfal Glades before trolls came to the area.
And an early passage says the vrykul settled Tirisfal. A bit later the stunted vrykul are sent there for refuge and live among them. The later still the Amani spread across the region.
Far as Chronicle paces the timeline, the ancestors of humanity lived in Tirisfal Glades before the trolls came to that area.
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Your own citation disagrees with you:
- May of the Dragonflayers obeyed Ymiron's brutal orders. Some, however, could not bring themselves to murder innocent children. They sought to hide their stunned offspring in a place of legend, a land far to the south where a lost clan of vrykul was said to have journeyed with Tyr, Archaedas, and Ironaya.
A number of Dragonflayers ventured south, taking their diminutive newborns in search of this fairy-tale refuge. Most were never heard from again. Both others did find their way. With heavy hearts, they left their beloved sons and daughters in the care of the vrkyul who inhabited Tirisfal.
Except we don’t have confirmation that these specific Constructs were the ones that turned to humans. Humans were told to come from Northrend, they came from Vrykul that were coming from that specific zone.
You don’t reinvent their origins like that. It’s like Saying that Amani are Nelf Ancestors.
Nelves came from Dark Trolls, and Dark Trolls were believed to be Amani offshot. But Amani aren’t Nelf Ancestors. This is how I understand it.
Their ancestors. But not humans. I mean, by that logic, all territorial claims by night elves also belong to the dark trolls from which they descended and vice versa.
But there’s also not really any Vrykul/proto-humans there to contest the claim either. But there are still trolls.
We’re not sure if the stunted Vrykul were sent there before the Amani expanded into the region, as no date is given. However it’s mentioned that the Old Gods didn’t have time to even worry about that possibility because they were already dealing with Trolls.
But, for the sake of argument. Lets say the trolls had decided that they were going to settle Trisfal after humans did, kill any of these primitive humans who opposed them, and take their land for their own. How would we feel about it? How should we feel about it?
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Tamanii’s citation continues as follows after the not-yet-humans were left with the Vrkyul that had already established themselves in Tirisfal:
- In the ages the followed, the afflicted children and their offspring would continue degenerating into mortal beings called humans. Many of the other titan-forged–mechagomes, tol'vir, mogu, and giants–would suffer a similar fate. Very few of the keepers' servants would fight off the affliction.
The Vrykul living in Trisfal at Tyr’s Fall didn’t give birth to stunted young that would eventually become humans. The Dragonflayer Vrykul living in Northrend did.
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