I believe (or at least, want to hope) that this was one of the few ideas that Blizzard nixed because even they were just barely self-aware enough to see how utterly screwed-up it would be to portray the player factions as the good guys in that situation. The game has enough squeaky-clean totally-justified morally-wholesome colonialism in it without making it the explicit centerpiece of an expansion’s main storyline.
Anyways, I think that some of you are getting so lost in the trees of detail that you’re losing track of the forest of narrative: the story of the gameline thoroughly and constantly justifies the taking of troll lands because the trolls are designed to be racist pulp fiction caricatures of ‘primitive savage natives’ and the people taking the lands from them are intended to be the protagonists and audience-inserts of the entire franchise, who are therefore (as per genre fantasy standard) overwhelmingly coded as white.
This is all a very disturbing thing and no amount of after-the-facts trivia from the game’s lorebooks etc. showing that actually trolls are fundamentally evil and stole the land from someone else and kicked puppies and 10,000% deserved it will change it.
Sure, if the framing is the one you want to spin by using the word “retaking” when in almost all hostile interactions between the Trolls and the other people on ancient Kalimdor it was the Trolls attacking to try to take the other people’s territories first.
As Ximothy covered, the Humans were already living in Arathi before the Amani (of which the Witherbark were part of) showed up.
Even the looking at the Troll Empires map in Chronicle, neither the Amani nor the Gurabashi, let alone the Drakkari, had expanded into the area that would be Dun Morogh, so even the Frostmane Tribe that gets brought up from time to time wasn’t actually trying to take back “Troll land.”
The only time this is really the other way around is with the High Elves and the Amani, and there both the Alliance and the Horde has supported Quel’Thalas against the Amani. If the Amani are hostile, they will always be framed as in the wrong, as the frame we are looking through are the playable races, as emphasized even by Lorash being angry at Malfurion for what was suffered at the hands of the Amani.
I wasn’t talking about Dun Morogh (nor was anyone else here, I think) and the question has remained pretty firmly on the question of Arathi/Tirisfal. I went back and looked over Ximothy’s posts, and now I am unsure of where we stand. He definitely said that the humans were in Tirisfal first, which I don’t think anyone particularly disputes, but I understood that we were talking about Arathi here, which is… less clear?
Over thousands of years, humanity flourished in the Eastern Kingdoms. This young race had originated from a group of vrkul who had settled in Tirisfal Glades. Although humans were diminished in size and strength from their progenitors, they possessed incredibly strong willpower and survival instincts.
Groups of hunter-gatherer humans proliferated throughout the forests and hillocks of the continent. As their society evolved and advanced, humans gathered in an array of different tribes. Each one practiced animistic beliefs–mainly crude forms of druidism and elemental shamanism. Despite the existance of Amani trolls, high elves, and other potential threats, humanity’s greatest adversary proved to be itself. The early tribes constantly warred with one another for land, and, by extension, power.
One tribe, the Arathi, came to realize the error of its ways. Over the span of a few decades, troll incursions into human territories had become more pronounced and ruthless. Something was changing among the brutish Amani to the north. The Arathi knew that if humankind remained divided, it would stand little chance against a true war with its moss-skinned foes. Lead by Warlord Thoradin, the tribe embarked on a campaign to bring its rivals under a single banner, whether by force or diplomacy.
The Arathi lived on the northeastern borders of the human lands and had a long history of skirmishes with the trolls. This experience had honed Thoradin into a master tactician and strategist. In the span of just six years, the warlord brought the other tribes to heel. He won a few of his adversaries to his side through political marriages. In other cases, Thoradin pitted his rivals against each other. On rare occasions, the canny warlord was forced to outright conquer some of the more belligerent tribes.
Much to the surprise of those he had defeated, Thoradin did not reign as a tyrant. He offered his former enemies peace and equality in what he claimed would be a glorious new human nation–a united kingdom of limitless potential. The tribal leaders would not fade into obscurity. They would server as honored generals. With these acts, Thoradin won the loyalty of his adversaries and was crowned king.
King Thoradin named his new kingdom Arathor. He tasked his most gifted builders with constructing a mighty capital called Strom southeast of Tirisfal Glades. The semiarid terrain around the city acted as the ideal buffer zone between humanity and the Amani, prohibiting the trolls from launching their much feared forest ambushes. Thoradin also ordered his people to build a great wall near the capital to further shield them from Amani incursions. Word of Strom’s might quickly spread among other disparate human tribes throughout the continent. Many flocked to the fortress for safety.
Just as Thoradin had expected, Amani trolls soon began encroaching on outlying lands controlled by the humans. The king dispatched two of his most prominent generals to gather intelligence on their enemies and waylay any of the brutes who strayed too deep into Arathor’s borders.
Quick question while I digest this (I read the whole thing, I promise this is not my only comment) but is it actually spelled “boarders” instead of “borders” in the book?
Your post is cute, but given your post history, this probably isn’t actually a rebuttable, but how you already felt before this thread, so you’re no better.
Not sure what you’re trying to achieve here. My post is meant to show the ridiculousness of the point made. I guess since I’ve made jabs at Night Elves before I can’t respond? Please do me a favor and get off your high horse.
This seems like a pretty lackluster reason to me. Ximothy already covered that elves did apparently know about Gilneas, but more than that you’re telling me they’d rather march through miles and miles of openly hostile territory clearly settled by a different people and slaughter their way through the heart of Amani lands rather than explore south through the relatively peaceful human inhabitants?
The high elves had options. They chose the most violent and bloody option they had available at the time. The only reason we’re really having this discussion is because the story bends over backwards to frame their act as heroic while demonizing the Amani.
And again, the Amani apparently had left a tribe of humans/vrykul mostly alone for thousands of years with only the occasional raiding party. That seems wildly contrary to the idea that the Amani are genocidal. Or even that they were going to enslave humanity.
We actually have a lot of evidence that trolls are fine with coexistence. Mostly in Zandalar, who admittedly are the least war-like troll race, but also a more interesting case in Zul’Drak where the Drakkari, widely agreed to be the most barbaric and bloodthirsty troll race, lived in peace with the local Wolvar tribes until the Scourge came.
I’m not overly keen on just inventing possible races the trolls might have displaced to try and paint the taking of their lands in a more positive moral light.
It is pretty much the same argument other users were using to say the night elves don’t have a right to Ashenvale purely because they might have displaced the untransformed dark trolls. I didn’t feel it was a valid argument for the night elves and I don’t see it as valid for the trolls.
As for the raiding that is being brought up in general:
Humans were raiding each other too. This was an incredibly tumultuous time period for everyone to live in. The world was shattered, new races were emerging from the earth and scattering out to settle their own lands, and each tribe was more or less alone to fight and fend for itself. The trolls were a threat largely because they were more established as a unified body, not necessarily because they were the only beings acting aggressively against their neighbors.
Edit for Citation: I quotes the in-game book Arathor and the Troll Wars, for reference.
I’m simply pointing out the flaws with said argument. Sure I’ve poked fun at night elves before (almost always in retaliation) which is exactly what I did here.
Once again, don’t know what your goal is here, but the holier than thou attitude is coming from you, not me.
I would not paint the taking of Troll lands in a positive light. My point is to say, though the clearest case of Troll land being taken is Quel’Thalas, many other examples that get brought up - Shatterspear in Darkshore, Frostmane in Dun Morogh, and the Witherbark in Arathi - were all the Trolls attacking land that was not Troll land as mapped out and described as discussed above.
That is my point. You aren’t holier than Nowise. The flaws in his post are the same as the flaws in posts you yourself have made before. My point is to say your post was hypocritical at best.