Please explain to me how culturally and physically distinct Highmountain are. Or Lightforged. Or Mag’har. You’re 100% cherry-picking and tunnel-visioning. From a cultural standpoint blood elves and high elves are radically different, clearly. Physicality means nothing seeing as the Alliance already has the rig and both factions literally already have multiples of the same races.
It’s not ground breaking.
It’s not game breaking.
It sure as hell isn’t lore breaking.
it really is delusion when the creators of the lore tell you flat out actual alliance high elves are a few individuals and not out there as they fanficiton. they then explained the gameplay rationale why they werent added, that they felt adding alliance high elves undermined the faction identity of the horde and that the fantasy a high elf represents is already perfectly represented by the blood elves
just look at exacitor trying to separate dalaran from the blood elves(high elves). its a joke
3000ish years for Dalaran High Elves.
30ish for the ones who left/stayed in foreign lands after the Second War.
15-17ish for those who where banished for not like what the Blood Elves where becoming. The only group confirmed to be made up purly of these are now dead as of cataclysm.
Develop a distinct physiology in a decade? No. Not that this is a requirement to be an allied race.
Develop a distinct culture in a decade? Absolutely. Those living in Stormwind and other human controlled lands have had to change a lot to acclimate to a human dominated culture which is far removed from that of the culture found in Silvermoon.
First and foremost is the lack of magic in every nook and cranny. The High Elves in places like Stormwind and Theramore (before they evacuated), don’t have magic brooms sweeping up after them, floating structures to live in, etc. While magic exists in human society, it doesn’t permeate the very core identity of human society the way it does for Blood Elves in Silvermoon. The Alliance High Elves have had to adapt to that lifestyle.
Assimilating into a new society also affects things like speech patterns, accents, trends in clothing and hair styles. If an American spent a decade living in England, they might find themselves speaking with a slight accent and/or using British slang in their everyday discourse without even realizing it. They might also find themselves subconsciously choosing clothing and hair styles that are more popular over there than in the United States. I can personally attest to seeing this happen to people I know who moved overseas.
I would imagine the Alliance High Elves have held on to what they could of their Quel’dorei heritage, but have discarded out of choice or necessity some things that don’t fit in with the society they now live in. That’s not even getting into the the subject interbreeding with humans and producing offspring.
oh, btw ex the high elf magisters of dalaran were simply an expatriate community. this faction had a name, the sunreavers. we know this because during the course of MOP, jaina cited the contribution of the sunreavers across thousands of years of dalaran history. they were even the high elves who taught humanity magic in the first place
https://imgur.com/a/5Yijnrb
even after it was rebuilt aethas was placed on the council as kael before him to lead the community. you have nothing backing your claim, no examples or lore to cite, that it is unique and has no ties to quel’thalas or that the alliance somehow has more claim(lol)
(Commentary): Strange, I had no idea that Rommath was a member of the Sunreavers… Or maybe the Sunreavers were just Blood Elves who had formerly lived in Dalaran and wanted to return to it? I mean, that was kind of their whole point, to regain access to Dalaran and the Kirin Tor. It’d be weird for that to be their goal if they weren’t a part of Dalaran, you know, like the High Elves living in Dalaran were.
(Commentary): Your source simply has her noting that Kael’thas was once a member of the Kirin Tor… I’m not sure how that correlates to the Sunreavers having been the ones to teach humans magic, specifically. I mean, the Sunreavers didn’t exist as a faction until Wrath of the Lich King, and Aethas had to go to Lor’themar to beg for Magisters to form it to support Dalaran in Northrend.
(Observation): I mean, he created the community known as the Sunreavers so… yeah, makes sense he’d lead them. As for being appointed to the Council, I can’t see why the Blood Elves would’ve ever wanted to cooperate with Dalaran without hefty representation in the city’s politics to prevent another circumstance like what happened with Garithos.
(Query): What, what are we talking about now? Are you suggesting the Alliance doesn’t have a, ‘claim,’ to Dalaran, but that Quel’Thalas somehow does because of the Sunreavers?
(Commentary): I’m getting very lost on your logic. I think you’re blatantly ignoring all of the High Elves in Dalaran who aren’t part of the Sunreavers for some reason.
this is the delusion and nothing is presented as you fanfiction in the game iteself
prior to the third war kael would have overseen matters of his people in dalaran as the prince and member of the council of six
following the fall of quel’thalas prince kael’thas returned home and renamed the high elves the blood elves. and in this moment why the hell would any high elf reject this? then we know that the city was completely evacuated and arthas immediately moved on dalaran following the ressurection of kel’thuzad and the fall of quel’thalas. you think the sunreaver mages never bothered to go back to see if they could help? delusional if so
the conclusion is that the high elves you talk about who have lived with humans for thousands of years are the sunreavers. they are the ones who returned and helped rebuild dalaran under that purple bubble we saw in TBC, including their old district and homes exactly as it was as we saw in the fate of dalaran quest with kael there in the past and they picked aethas to represent their people. after they rebuilt it they floated the city and headed straight for northrend and arthas and we saw in the shadows of the sun, at this time aethas would reach out to his people to help with the northrend campaign vereesa opposed to this and created the SC the rest is history
every high elf mage you see in game today must have been a sunreaver at some point as the SC is the new organization and we all know is heavily implied to be mostly ranger types that wasnt even a thing until just prior to wrath. thats why you cannot build a distinct identity for alliance high elves using elves of dalaran. most of them are and were sunreavers. and even ion said you had no hub/settlement you think he didnt know about the dalaran population? get real gnomie
I think there have been some good signs lately. I don’t intend to give up hope.
(Observation): Because they weren’t present for it? Not knowing about it seems a fairly valid reason.
(Query): Silvermoon City? Dalaran? I’m having a hard time following your train of thought, you’re jumping around a bit.
(Commentary): If you mean Silvermoon, according to the Warcraft Encyclopedia (not RPGs), Kael’thas took 15% of the survivors of Quel’Thalas with him to Dalaran to seek to have Quel’Thalas rejoin the Alliance and secure aid. By the time he arrived Dalaran had already fallen.
(Commentary): If they didn’t just turn around the moment Kael’thas arrived in Quel’Thalas? Yes. Dalaran fell right after. If the (future) Sunreavers remained with their prince to support the people of Quel’Thalas, Dalaran would’ve fallen before they managed to return to it.
(Query): So the Silver Covenant… are the Sunreavers? And all those High Elves in Dalaran are Sunreavers? Then why weren’t they purged during MoP?
(Statement): I am so confused with your logic.
(Query): If they returned and rebuilt Dalaran, then why did they need to specifically get approved to rejoin it? Why did Aethas need to go to Silvermoon to recruit Magisters to join him, to form the Sunreavers, to try and get Blood Elves back into Dalaran?
(Commentary): You don’t really… know lore, do you?
Physiology? Definitely not.
I am led to believe they would be culturally different though…
dalaran was completely evacuated. why would any high elf go all the way to SW rather back home to see if they could help or check on family and friends. this was pre schism keep in mind. complete delusion
plus the lore flat out says only a few individuals existed outside of dalaran and quel’thalas. this would have been allerian hold and w.e few followed jaina to kalimdor
the SC exists because vereesa was able to give a home to the farstriders who did not want to join the horde with the rest of their people and used them and a few other like minded mages to form her SC to protect dalaran from the blood elves who were coming with the rest of the horde at the behest of aethas and the rest of the kirin tor
and the SC are primarily hunter types. hunter types have no long history in dalaran like the sunreavers. and they werent waiting around in SW this whole time either because if they were we would have seen a high elf district in SW and it would just be vereesa the trophy wife in dalaran and thats it. no ranger general of the SC
look its all there its all there, from the way they very city was designed, to the histories in the lore, to even the dialogue of the major characters. the sunreavers werent just among the elves who lived in dalaran for two thousand years. they were those elves
and they are now horde. just like the elves from wc2, they were a force sent from quel’thalas. even the ones following jaina in wc3, they came from quel’thalas. and quel’thalas is now horde. the alliance lost any chance to have playable high elves the moment that happened
youre the one claiming high elves are an alliance race on par with their other races
If my lore knowledge is correct, sunreavers were only formed somewhere between WC2 and WC3. Hence, it is impossible for the sun reavers to be the ones that taught the humans to be mages. Neither is it possible for every high elf mage to be a sunreaver at some point.
While this is true, the reason they do not have their own hub is because they had fully integrated themselves with humans.q
Again, the argument of low population is not a valid argument when void elves exists.
there is no reference to any other kind of elf who taught humans magic. just the sunreavers
there would have been no need for another group of elves within dalaran, any high elf who dwelt in dalaran would have simply joined the sunreaver mages and their associates with their resident prince. and high elves were always an extremely small minority in dalaran but they had their own region in dalaran. remember we saw it in the quest fate of dalaran when jaina is recalling the past and who was controlling that region in wrath? who has a member on the damn council of six
(Commentary): Where the evacuees went is not made clear, only that most of Dalaran’s population was evacuated. It seems the elves who would’ve gone to Quel’Thalas to check on family and friends, would’ve done so when Kael’thas left with the elves who intended to do just that.
(Commentary): I’d love to see a source for this. Jaina seemed to have a good number in her expedition to Kalimdor, and Alleria had her group in Outland, not to mention High Elves among Alliance Expedition’s Kirin Tor forces as well, etc… Again, there has never been any lore stating how many High Elves existed outside of Quel’Thalas. Dalaran certainly should’ve had the bulk, I agree with you there, but the lore also tells us that not all elves left with Kael’thas. We don’t even know if a majority did.
(Query): Source?
(Observation): They seem to have a pretty even spread, actually. In Wrath we mostly saw their Guardian Mages. Even as of Suramar we saw the Silver Covenant forces with Vereesa as Guardian Mages. I mean, do those guys look like hunters to you?
(Commentary): Sorry, but as you said, it’s all there. The Sunreavers were simply among the elves who had lived in Dalaran. In fact their own page states they were citizens of Quel’Thalas who had come to Dalaran to study and work. It doesn’t state they were citizens of Dalaran.
(Commentary): Actually, they couldn’t have. Jaina’s expedition was made up of Alliance forces. The High Elves in the Alliance at that time had rejected Anasterian’s command to leave the Alliance and return to Quel’Thalas.
(Commentary): Correct, and Dalaran is Alliance as of Mists of Pandaria. Last I checked, the Council of Six voted to let the Horde back into the city in Legion, not to leave the Alliance. Aethas isn’t even back on the Council.
(Commentary): I’m claiming that High Elves would certainly have a unique culture to Blood Elves, coming from Dalaran. The Sunreavers aren’t the bulk of the Blood Elf race. They’re not even a bulk of the elves living in Dalaran.
yes so we have to draw our own conclusions. we all know the encyclopedia entry that says only a few high elves NEVER took the name and modern high elves are an extremely rare thing and individuals. so where do you think the vast majority ended up?
(Observation): High Elves taught humans magic. Jaina’s dialogue suggests that some of the High Elves who originally taught humans magic would later become members of the Sunreavers, but nowhere is it implied that is exclusive to the Sunreavers.
(Commentary): Again, the Sunreavers didn’t exist until Wrath of the Lich King. High Elves prior to the Third War who were citizens of Quel’Thalas would probably have answered to Kael’thas in Dalaran, but those whom were citizens of Dalaran, and not of Quel’Thalas? They could’ve answered to any member of the Council of Six. Ravandwyr himself was apprentice to Vargoth, not Kael’thas.
correct. but they are the only ones credited unless something new comes up they get sole credit for it
the name is debatable when it came to be a thing but the elves that make up the core of it isnt
kael was a member. so was aethas after dalaran was rebuilt
sorry gnomie, but it helps if you have any evidence of your own to present in contrast
Neither was there any reference that it was sunreavers that taught the humans. The sunreavers (as mentiones that if my lore is accurate) only formed between the events of wc2 and wc3. The troll wars, where high elves taught human magic, occured more than 2500 years ago. Waaaaay before wc1.
This, i agree. However, the silver covenant was formed iirc in wrath. The sunreaver was most definitely horde alligned. Hence vareesa took it upon herself to form the silver covenant.
No i do not agree with this unfortunately. Blood elves and high elves may have been the same race, but their political view is different. Would not make sense that they join the sunreavers if they were horde alligned while they stayed loyal to the alliance.
Dalaran used to be an alliance city, and was made neutral to allow horde entry to assist the fight against the lich king. Beside the blood elves, there were multiple humans that were on the council of 6 as well.
Kel thuzard, antonidas, rhonin comes to mind. Definitely more, but i would have to break out my googlefu for them, and i am too lazy for that.
Point is, the high elved need not follow the horde representative when they are also alliance representative within the council.
(Commentary): I mean, the Encyclopedia also states High Elves are only a race on a biological level so… does that mean they’re biologically distinct?
(Speculative): The Warcraft Encyclopedia was written around Vanilla WoW, a time when the Developers had a different idea of where the lore would go. Back then the Alliance was going to get a reputation called, ‘Silvermoon Remnants.’ It suggests Quel’Thalas and the Blood Elves would’ve become an Alliance race. That didn’t happen, however, so suddenly the Warcraft Encyclopedia’s entry on High Elves being so few and never gathering in significant numbers is proven wrong in Wrath when Dalaran has plenty of High Elves, and the Silver Covenant has enough manpower to field multiple campaigns. It seems likely that the writers made an unspoken retcon.
(Commentary): That’s not very logical at all. I’m afraid you’ll need to provide an actual source stating all the elves who taught humans magic would become Sunreavers, not just some of them.
(Commentary): I’d be amused to see someone walk up to Rommath and tell him he’s a Sunreaver because he used to be an Archmage of the Kirin Tor.
(Query): Just going to ignore Archmage Vargoth again, are we? And his High Elven apprentice?
the game itself is the source where jaina gives them sole credit. no other elves are mentioned. your view is just speculation
look the only evidence we have for a group of high elves in dalaran are the sunreavers, who even had a quarter named after them and which existed PRIOR to the citys destruction
as for the phrase jaina uses ‘helped humans discover magic’, the obvious interpretation is that they were helping humans in the same way any teacher helps a student discover something. it does not mean there was a collective effort between multiple groups of elves all simultaneously attempting to teach humans magic. that just sounds ridiculously desperate and for one thing, we have absolutely no evidence that any other group existed