Jonh hight in chinajoy 2019 (Spoilers?)

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

I’m pretty sure the Alliance started it that time, but it coulda be a case of both sides getting different information. If it was ambiguous, it still doesn’t make the Horde villains in Cata. We were just opposed to the Alliance.

i think that they tried to left it ambigous so we can have that kind of debates. but yes, agreed.

I think you and I have different definitions of “paying the consequences.”

Okay i feel like this is something that we need to clarify.
I am not asking for horde players to pay consequences for it.
i am asking the horde faction to do it. as a fictional faction.
But of course that usually makes horde players angry and is normal. since they are one of the two playable factions.
i know that there is some sort “horde shame tally”
but that is NOT what i am asking.

i don’t want that the story tries to shame horde players for past actions, i think that they already have enough with alliance players doing it.

But that is the problem. Since we didn’t get an actual “revenge” or response to these things is what create this dissasticfaction that lead us to keep bringing it over and over again creating a vicious cycle.

We will keep bringing up beause is history, and history is relevant.

I think you have more of an “eye for an eye”

This is actually true, i believe in the eye for an eye, the isn’t the alliance a faction based on “retribution”?

You started WoW with numerous advantages and you are mad that the playing field is being leveled

i understand your point and here my counterargument to that:
if balance was what we needed, we didn’t needed to lose it at the hands of the horde.
i think that many of us would be far more happier if maybe a tsunami destroyed the place, maybe one caused by deathwing,and in response, we kill him, like any standard villain.

But blizzard decided, just like teldrassil that a playable faction do it. creating an impossible resolution:
just like blizzard wrote themselves in a corner by giving us more things to begin with, when they had the chance to get out of it.

They decided to write themselves in another corner making the horde do it to push some dumb faction war that has been consuming the narrative and our factions.

This isn’t Horde bias, it’s undoing Blizzard’s original Alliance bias.

See my point above.

I am speaking to the way the it is framed in the narrative. By Baine’s own admission, Taurajo was a legitimate target and Horde have no right to be upset about it’s destruction.

Baine is not someone characterizaded for revenge.
he, like other pro-peace characters would rather de escalate situations.
and i feel like taurajo, just like jaina were caught of in a middle of a dumb faction war.

ever been confronted with the idea that it might have been.

this is not entirely correct, it may be true that she wasn’t confronted directly as it being “a legit target” but, it was more that her anger wasn’t really directed about the horde, but rather, her anger with herself. instead of confronting her own guilt, she decided to direct it at the horde until very recently. that was her questline was about.

It’s not Horde biased.

Hum i never said that this particular topic was horde biased.

Again, we have different definitions. You think Sylvanas doing whatever she wants is Horde bias

i mean, if by your standar, jaina doing whatever she wants and not being properly confronted for the things she has done to the horde the same could be applied to sylvanas who is the warchief of the horde. and done far more worse things to the alliance.
But you are right that i don’t know how it affected horde players, i have seen many that are happy with her so i don’t really know what to think about that.

but i do know how the alliance story feels from this side.

She feels bad because she wishes she was more racist back then.

No, this was actually a conflict in the character, she didn’t know if she was right or wrong. so she had been confronted for all the past actions that affected her the most, feeling guilt and shame for abandoning arthas. or not knowing if daelin was right or wrong.

in the end of the day, her mother saves her from that forgiving her, asking to herself that she forgives herself, so what i get from that, that all that “gigantic hate” on the horde was,like i say her own guilt a guilt that she didn’t confronted because she was running away from it, i mean, that is pretty interesting to me.

You aren’t supposed to agree with her or not, even katherine agrees that daelin “was lost”. you are supposed to get to your own conclusion. and again, never said that it was horde bias that.

You’re right. At this point in the story both Jaina and Thrall are finally confronting their shortcomings. Finally . Both of them are to blame for a lot of what is wrong with Alliance and Horde relations right now.

oh yes i agree but that is why i think that both of them are good characters. Why you say?
Because they are both flawed characters with their own story and mistakes.

They were destined to fail, first is because no one is perfect and if they succeded, then we would not have a game already because we would have world of peacecraft.

Maybe, both of them have been poorly handled, but was the alternative having their story end after wc3?,getting peace for the world and happy ending for everyone?
i think that is precisely why i like both of them now. and both of them are trying to redeem themselves.
but hey, personal taste.

Actually, I haven’t seen Brennadam because I refuse to do the War Campaign.

Then you would know that a party of soldiers composed of orcs,trolls, goblins and forsaken attack a town and torturing the civillians on it just for fun.
now, i seriously doubt that is horde bias, but even after we have our “revenge” on them and burned their base, the place is still standing like nothing happened. so i hope you can see why this lack of revenge becomes a greater problem when you combine it with everything else.

Despite the wishes of the Horde players, we are the villains. Explain to me how giving the Horde players the exact opposite of what we want is Horde bias?

see my point above. the lack of retribution becomes a greater problem.
when a non-playable faction does something like that, they face the consequences.

[Trivelfrank-wyrmrest-accord (Trivelfrank)]

Who is John Hight and what is Chinajoy?

John Hight was producer of Sesame Street Numbers & Letters and now he has big plans for Sylvanas. What could go wrong?

[Rathi-echo-isles (Rathi)]

The problem is you got two camps of Horde players.

1. Who think because the Horde is sad or Baine fights for Forsaken free will some how makes them good.

2. The others who want any weakness or moral reflection removed because it is too close to Alliance ideals.

I find boiling down an incredibly diverse group of players with incredibly diverse experiences and opinions into two very narrow categories very problematic. I don’t fit into either category.

I don’t think the Horde is good, especially not now when Sylvanas calls the shots. This is what I mean when I say people refuse to read any nuance that does exist in the story. No political entity is inherently good or evil; it’s the people in positions of power that are either moral or immoral. Sylvanas is the one with all the power, and she’s obviously evil. By extent, the Horde aren’t good right now. But we used to be.

We were good when Vol’jin was Warchief, and we were good when Thrall was Warchief. You can make an argument that the Horde needs political restructuring so the Warchief position doesn’t have total power, and I would agree with you, but to condemn the entirety of the Horde is just extreme, especially when a vast majority of the people are ignorant of Sylvanas’ actions and motives. Lacking information is not a crime when that information is not accessible to them. You can’t expect every NPC citizen of the Horde to have as much meta knowledge as the players do.

[Renat-moon-guard (Renat)]

I can’t believe the Count is going to be the new Forsaken leader.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

i think that they tried to left it ambigous so we can have that kind of debates. but yes, agreed.

I thought Chronicle retconned this into the horde unambiguously starting it?

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

I thought Chronicle retconned this into the horde unambiguously starting it?

True, the thing that i agreed on was that in cata it was purposely ambiguous.

[Argronak-queldorei (Argronak)]

Don’t care for Sylvanas so long as I shove my blade in her face.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

I don’t think the Horde is good period.
They are a different flavour of evil than old gods or legion but evil nonetheless.

If game allowed me on a narrative level to wipe them out root and stem I would do it and have zero moral dilemmas about it.
There was nothing wrong with Jaina destroying Orgrimmar just as there is nothing wrong with Yrel Lightforging/bounding all orcs.

When you got a crazed race hellbent on killing and blood what other solution is there but to kill them or pacify them?
If there is one race I am unsure about is the Tauren but after Teldrassil and Baine’s lack of action I would say he belongs with the rest of them.

[Rathi-echo-isles (Rathi)]

Rather than going point by point, I think I’ll just respond to your post as a whole.

The only goal for my entire involvement in this thread is to combat the idea that Blizzard has a Horde bias. Numerous blue posters in this thread are making that argument, and so everything I am posting in this thread is a counter-argument to that sentiment. By responding to me, I may have mistaken you for someone who was in that camp, and I apologize for making that assumption.

For the record, I am not claiming that Blizzard has an Alliance bias either, certainly not the extent that people who speak of faction biases tend to perceive. The story focus swings back and forth I don’t think any inequity is intended.

Overall I don’t think your position and my position are opposed to each other. I agree the Alliance deserves retribution for what happened to them. We may disagree on what that retribution might look like, though.

Both Alliance and Horde players are immensely dissatisfied with the stories we were given, and justifiably so. It makes no sense to me that we are arguing with each other over who has it worse when we should be united against the terrible job Blizzard has done in delivering a quality play experience to both factions. Obviously I feel the Horde experience more personally, so I post from a Horde perspective, but that doesn’t mean I am not also outraged by the way Night Elves were treated in BfA. Both sides deserved better. Everything sucks right now. That’s my official opinion.

[Rathi-echo-isles (Rathi)]

I don’t think the Horde is good period.
They are a different flavour of evil than old gods or legion but evil nonetheless.

If game allowed me on a narrative level to wipe them out root and stem I would do it and have zero moral dilemmas about it.
There was nothing wrong with Jaina destroying Orgrimmar just as there is nothing wrong with Yrel Lightforging/bounding all orcs.

When you got a crazed race hellbent on killing and blood what other solution is there but to kill them or pacify them?
If there is one race I am unsure about is the Tauren but after Teldrassil and Baine’s lack of action I would say he belongs with the rest of them.

There’s a word for people who think like that. We call it extremism.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

There’s a word for people who think like that. We call it extremism.

You justify the Horde has done and continues to do.
Point out anything positive they have done and I would change my view.

All you have pointed out is selfish behaviour and unbridled savagery that is the Horde.

[Rathi-echo-isles (Rathi)]

There’s a word for people who think like that. We call it extremism.

You justify the Horde has done and continues to do.
Point out anything positive they have done and I would change my view.

All you have pointed out is selfish behaviour and unbridled savagery that is the Horde.

Am I limited to Horde as a whole or do acts committed by individual members of the Horde count? You seem to think the Horde is a hive mind so I don’t know what you are looking for.

Do acts I perform as a member of the Horde count?

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

No I differentiate the players from the faction itself.
You are personally absolved of the things your faction does but its a two way street.
Its when the faction together as a whole nods a long regarding an action that is damning or absolving.

For example Velen decided to heal the sunwell with the heart of a Naruu the BE’s were torturing for a whole expansion.
He had no reason to do this. He could have left the blood elves as they were they would have ceased to be as a race.
But Velen and the Naruu didn’t abandon them despite fully knowing the Blood Elves would be involved atleast in two wars against them.

When have we ever seen selfless actions like these from ANY of the Horde races?
The Horde doesn’t operate that way.
What they want they take and kill any who resists. If they feel threatened they attack with little warning or mercy.

Saurfang could pretend he is all good now but that dude has more blood on his hands than Sylvanas.
Thrall and Baine are no different, complacent, naive and enable tyrant warchiefs all the frigging time until it is suddenly an inconvenience for them personally.
That’s when they change their tune.

The way that I have interacted with the Horde and Blizzard has chosen to present them. I have nothing but contempt for them. And I can’t help but scoff at the idea that they are ‘good’ as you say.
I see them as those lesser evil you have to side with because that bigger evil is not something tolerable and only because Blizzard states I need the lesser evil’s help. If I had the choice I wouldn’t involve myself with them.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

Cata kind of makes sense, but what Horde organizations did Alliance characters have to join and rise up the ranks of in WoD, Mists?

More specifically, who’d you have to work with outside of Siege of Orgrimmar, when you were helping them take down their Warchief?

And what Horde characters did you even have to talk to, let alone work for in WoD?

[Renat-moon-guard (Renat)]

More specifically, who’d you have to work with outside of Siege of Orgrimmar, when you were helping them take down their Warchief?

The Darkspear Rebellion was months before Siege and had a major content patch focused on it. In the beta Vol’jin even talked some mad **** to Alliance players upon joining the rebellion before that was (rightfully) backtracked.

And what Horde characters did you even have to talk to, let alone work for in WoD?

Thrall right out the portal and Doomhammer if we’re still playing by the asinine rule that the Army of Light containing former Alliance characters makes it an Alliance organization.

[Aviala-wyrmrest-accord (Aviala)]

In the beta Vol’jin even talked some mad **** to Alliance players upon joining the rebellion before that was (rightfully) backtracked.

I don’t think it was backtracked - they added the option for the Alliance player to smack talk him back and make Vol’jin almost grovel, which just meant that both sides got angry about the dialogue.

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

I don’t think it was backtracked - they added the option for the Alliance player to smack talk him back and make Vol’jin almost grovel, which just meant that both sides got angry about the dialogue.

wait, what was that? what dialogue? maybe i forgot, lol.

[Lenastus-zuljin (Lenastus)]

Why are you still wasting your time with those guys??? Its clear that they wont listen to us. They keep convinced themself that the horde story that horde player dont like is the best thing in the world…

Equality is horde bias for them. Alliance having more everything for 6 years was fine for them. Than cata came and make everything equal and you know what? HORDE BIAS!!!

Now they want the horde player being punished for having their story being butchered by blizzard. As long as the alliance dont feel morally superior, dont have more city and are not able to make the horde beg them to survive it wont be enough for them.

By that I mean that after atrocity, after atrocity, after atrocity, the Horde’s continued existence is nothing but bias

What can please them at this point…

[Rathi-echo-isles (Rathi)]

No I differentiate the players from the faction itself.
You are personally absolved of the things your faction does but its a two way street.
Its when the faction together as a whole nods a long regarding an action that is damning or absolving.

Okay. I can work with that. By the way, I agree with you that the Horde as a whole too often forgets themselves and just looks the other way when their leaders do something wrong. It’s especially jarring when it’s extremely out of character for them to do so. My whole point is it’s not Horde bias, it’s bad writing. This is a plot driven story that makes characters on both sides act out of character in order to make the author’s desired outcome come to pass. But I won’t be excusing the Horde characters with any information for being compliant, especially when you set the bar so low as merely pointing out “anything positive [the Horde] have done” in order for you to change your view.

For example Velen decided to heal the sunwell with the heart of a Naruu the BE’s were torturing for a whole expansion.
He had no reason to do this. He could have left the blood elves as they were they would have ceased to be as a race.
But Velen and the Naruu didn’t abandon them despite fully knowing the Blood Elves would be involved atleast in two wars against them.

Okay, so here you are using the actions of Velen, an individual, as an example of something postive the Alliance, the organization, has done. So it follows that I can use individual members of the Horde as well, as long as they are not player characters.

When have we ever seen selfless actions like these from ANY of the Horde races?

Very recently we saw Baine basically resign himself to execution in order to reunite Jaina with her brother, even though Jaina is responsible for the deaths of countless Horde lives. That’s the most direct comparison I can think of. You can make a case that it was too little, too late, and I’d agree with you, but it’s still a positive action he has taken on behalf of the Alliance. It still fits the criteria.

Hamuul Runetotem almost died in defense of Mount Hyjal. He assisted Malfurion and Cenarious in taking down Ragnaros. That’s pretty positive.

The Horde as an organization joined Jaina and Tyrande in the defence of the World Tree against the burning legion. This was not a player action, it was the Horde, led by Thrall, because the Horde is good when our leader is good.

The Horde cooperated with the Argent Crusade. The two instigators for conflict were Garrosh, who had no authority, and the Alliance High King, who did. Thrall was working with Jaina towards peace at the time.

The Horde doesn’t operate that way.
What they want they take and kill any who resists. If they feel threatened they attack with little warning or mercy.

Except that time Baine warned Jaina about the attack on Theramore.

Saurfang could pretend he is all good now but that dude has more blood on his hands than Sylvanas.
Thrall and Baine are no different, complacent, naive and enable tyrant warchiefs all the frigging time until it is suddenly an inconvenience for them personally.
That’s when they change their tune.

They are written inconsistently, but so is everyone. Luckily I don’t have to make the case that they are good people, just that they had done something positive at some point, which I did.

The way that I have interacted with the Horde and Blizzard has chosen to present them. I have nothing but contempt for them. And I can’t help but scoff at the idea that they are ‘good’ as you say.
I see them as those lesser evil you have to side with because that bigger evil is not something tolerable and only because Blizzard states I need the lesser evil’s help. If I had the choice I wouldn’t involve myself with them.

Good thing you are going to keep your promise and change your view, right? You requested I name anything positive the Horde has done, and I did. Or I suppose you can try and discredit, spin, or outright ignore every positive thing the Horde has done so you can continue being filled with hate. You know, like an extremist would do. Your choice.

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

Why are you still wasting your time with those guys??? Its clear that they wont listen to us.

Let me ask you this since i don’t know you.
but have you ever tried to listen to us, alliance players?

i think that you already make up your mind and choosed a side, i respect that.
but if you aren’t willing to listen to our side, why we should listen yours?