If if was a fifth we would all be drunk.
Sylvanas saved the Horde and there nothing you can “if up” will change it, so yeah you don’t have to consider her a true member of the Horde(which is a good thing) but without her there would be no Horde.
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And yet the very entity that placed her in the drivers seat is the only reason she was put in that position to save the Horde to begin with. IT (whatever it is) manufactured a segment of the very danger she had to rescue the Horde from, when the Horde’s Warchief was gutted (and one should remember that Vol’jin was neither a weak individual … nor was he stupid).
No idea what you mean.
Wrong again. Every location Alliance lost there were Horde equivalents there as well. Besides why was there a need for Horde to destroy them?
The issue isn’t who lost what. Its how they lost it.
Otherwise i could bring up everything the Alliance has lost against the Horde AND everything else.
Fact is Sylvanas the Warchief of the Horde destroyed 1 whole zone and conquered 2 others while Alliance scorched a tiny strip before the Horde destroyed their own city in spite of the Alliance player.
Turalyon fights evil. Horde evil. There isn’t much else that’s needed.
Alliance didn’t do jack and Horde attacked them and got allied races to join them to continue their war.
Hence the whole point of allied races.
I can agree to that. Saurfang falls into the same bracket.
What has Thrall done so far that mirrors what Jaina has done? I am seriously curious. What was Thralls version of iceblock and forbid people to attack Alliance.
F Thrall. The guy is scum. Jaina pandering to the Horde and Thrall stems from her naive positivity, and she paid the price for it.
And now in BFA all her character progression is getting completely destroyed with the latest amicable reactions to Thrall, Saurfang and Baine.
It would have been so easy for Jaina to help Varian or her father kill Thrall and destroy his Horde but she didn’t. Each time for the sake of cooperation and peace.
And it blew in her face spectacularly.
Both sides had the same type of dialogue and actions.
Even Thalyssra has no qualms of sending her crackhead soldiers to their deaths and happily replaces them like automatons.
The only argument has been Tyrande was mean in a single interaction and so the entire NE race deserves to die according to red posters.
At the moment, the only reason the Horde even needs saving is because of what Sylvanas has done in the War of Thorns. If Vol’jin had put Baine, or Saurufang, or Lothemar, or hell, even Gallywix, I’m sure the Horde would be having some problems, but fighting to not be dismantled by a vengeful Alliance wouldn’t be one of them.
And I say this as someone who can kind of understand why/how Sylvanas, in all her twisted logic, arrived at the conclusions and has done the terrible things she has.
Unfortunately not a single Alliance character has ever said as much in BFA. All our characters can say is fumble about trying to minimize losses and try to save the Horde from Sylvanas.
Just curious. Why is it okay for the Lightforged to turn on the Horde after the Horde helped them, but it’s not okay for the Nightborne to turn on the Alliance after the Alliance helped them?
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I think some of the feeling is because Sylvanas made the first major attack in the war, so the Lightforged only jumped in to fight on the defensive.
If Lordaeron came first, with a lot of Light-purging going on, I think this argument would be flipped around.
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That’s fair I suppose. I assumed the first 4 allied races joined their factions before the war started though? Or was that just the void elves since the others don’t show up?
As I’m the one quoted, I’ll tell you. Justice.
It’s actually not, at least for me. That’s all I want is equality. For the Alliance to be let off the leash, and be able to put the Horde in the same boat the Horde put the Night Elves in. Then sidestep the consequences, as the Horde will.
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So it’s horde bias to have all our racial leaders killed and turned into villians in-between major expacs?
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They do, and therefore they fall into the same lore void as the rest of the Horde after the Burning of Teldrassil - because they weren’t written to respond at all, it looks like they were fine with barbecuing their former allies. And their civilians. And their children.
(Really, I think that the expansion story was rushed, and that’s why no one reacts to the major plot points that they really needed to show a reaction to. The skeleton of the story was written, but they didn’t have the time to fill in the necessary details, so all that’s visible is a few characters and a few showy disjointed scenes.)
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It’s Horde bias that during those swings into villainy, the Horde gets to destroy or conquer vast tracts of Alliance territory, and kill huge swathes of Alliance citizenry, but when it swings back to the Alliance’s turn, the Alliance is forced to fight blindfolded, with both arms tied behind their back, and standing on one leg, and be forced to constantly pull punches, as the Horde hides behind their protected status as playable (which was never afforded to their Alliance victims). Then, they get to walk away with nothing but a stern talking-to and a slight re-shuffle of their talking heads.
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That’s a reason I can accept. I don’t particularly think Thalyssra could have pulled out of the Horde over that, but maybe a throw away line of her going “WTF is going on” may have been helpful.
I do still think the people who are mad the Nightborne went Horde at first are a bit obtuse though.
Agreed. There’s very little going on between the big pieces they throw to us here and there, I feel like this kind of expansion needed way more TLC to even be palatable to both sides.
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Thats because the Alliance power fantasy absolutely towers over the Horde’s, especially after Legion. Quite bluntly, Blizzard did not want to actually put in the ground work of HOW specifically the Horde had any chance of winning this war.
I would be first to state my belief that the Horde as it is now (if all its assets were allowed) would be A match for the Kaldorei; but CERTAINLY not the whole Alliance (and that should be a testiment to strength of the Kaldorei even now that I say that … but I will not ignore the explosive growth the Horde has experienced over the last decade either). Nevertheless Blizzard wished for a story where in which the Horde was the aggressors again … so … haphazardly … they had to find way to justify such a role the Red Faction was objectively not capable of fulfilling (and thus the Alliance was neutered to enable this story). They took a VERY lazy way out.
The Horde was tasked with playing the aggressors in a war that Blizzard has repeatedly told us we have no chance of winning if not for the Alliance having its hands tied behind its back (both functionally and ideologically). It is a VERY uncomfortable position for both factions to be in; and neither side will get satisfaction from it.
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One of my favorite bits of lore we got this expansion is that the local Kaldorei baker armed with her rolling pin is capable of beating approximately 8 Horde soldiers to death 
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Don’t you dare disrespect our pastry chefs.
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Ayup … and yet somehow it was the Kaldorei’s Power Fantasy that was infringed on the War of Thornes (not the ENTIRE Horde Factions). Hey … I wonder why the Horde wasn’t using ANY tech (outside of an odd Mach2 Shredder) that dates past BC? Clearly that was to reinforce the HORDE’S Faction fantasy lol!
lets be fair alot the Gripes of the story are to do with Blizzard being Lazy,
Legion felt terrible for horde players as they didn’t have their own class halls with their own themes. This is only because Blizzard stripped these factions from the Alliance such as the Silver covenant and Cenarion circle to make them neutral to both groups This was terrible for both sides. However not having some orcs deal with Guldan at nighthold felt like a missed opportunity. I’d argue they have less to do with Kil’jaden, Sure he was the Mastermind but he never directly interacted with the Horde, he used Guldan for that. Suarfang would have been perfect character to use Horde side to face Guldan and showing up on Argus to find what happen to his brother Brox.
The second issue lies in that the Horde simply lacks champions. Those that did exist were pushed into support roles in class halls. This is generally because either Blizzard kills them and the out of game writers simply don’t like writing for the Horde meaning they don’t get any new characters generated in novels and comics.
On the Alliance side however Horde players needs to understand that every time the Alliance loses something to the Horde we are forced through lengthy quests and phasing of the world to drive home how much damage has been done.
Every time the Alliance is supposedly winning something in game it isn’t represented very well. There is never any phasing, quest chains showing us rebuilding, nothing is reflected in the game and alot of it is pushed to novels. Sure we invaded Orgrimmar back in MOP but what came from it? was the city damage? did we capture the war chief and get justice? did we take back the territories we lost? no we got nothing but an empty threat.
Not to mention they amount of times we get our leaders deciding to let the Horde go again, or forgive them again or ignore their past mistakes. It makes the alliance experience feel very hollow.
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Your issue is you don’t want to see or interact with the horde. My issue is I don’t want to play the allaince when my character is horde.
You see the difference
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The Horde does have better pastry chefs. The wildlife of Argus agrees. Never forget the Horde’s invaluable contributions to ending the Legion.
It’s not something inherent to just WoT/BfA, though. Even at the end of MoP, the entire leadership of the Horde was locked in a room with a guy literally empowered by a demigod, and two demigod(dess) tier Alliance characters with legitimate grievances against them. One of whom can teleport masses of people, when she remembers to, so fighting their way back out through a hostile city after handling the leadership is no big deal.
Instead, we get an idle threat, that made the Alliance look silly, weak willed, and impotent at the time. Trebly so, with the hindsight of Teldrassil. And we’re still on course to do it all again.
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