Jonh hight in chinajoy 2019 (Spoilers?)

[Rathi-echo-isles (Rathi)]

• Sparing the Horde leadership directly responsible for what Garrosh did (IE Sylvanas) was frigging saint like.

• How is Jaina being naive and aiding Thrall despite everything not a positive?

• Nah it was a gift. It was specifically so the Horde won’t attack them again. We all saw how that good gesture blew in her face.

• To be fair both sides were throwing Nightborne crackheads at the evil nightborne.
Tyrande had me save fleeing Suramar citizens. If she was so uncaring she would not have cared either way and would have never bothered to help them.

• They sure can I have been trying to deal with this ‘honor horde’ crowd for a while now.

I’m doing bullet points because formatting it the other way is exhausting.

• Don’t get me wrong, I think it was a noble thing Varian did, but sparing someone is not a positive action. It’s simply not a negative one. I would think we could agree that a positive action would be something that generates positivity, not something that merely maintains the status-quo.

Also, if the Horde is truly as evil as you claim, then sparing the Horde was not a postive action because it would be allowing that evil to continue to exist.

• Following that, Jaina saving Thrall and allowing him to spread his brand of “evil” to continue is not a postive action.

I, personally, think it was a positive action, but it doesn’t fit your narrow definition as something that was wholly altruistic and didn’t benefit one’s self at all. Her stated goal for Wrath, even a higher priority than fighting the Scourge, was brokering peace between the Alliance and the Horde. Thrall was necessary for her to achieve her goals. She benefitted from sparing him.

• “It was a gift so the Horde won’t attack them again.” So Tyrande did it not out of the kindness of her heart, you say, but because she benefited from a cease in hostilities. That’s not altuism, that’s cutting your losses.

• I can’t speak with any authority on this because I only went through the whole Suramar campaign once on the Horde side, but I suspect sparing Nightborne refugees is a side effect of both Alliance and Horde having the same World Quests with different dialogue. Still, more refugees spared means more meatshields for your soldiers to hide behind.

• I can spin all day and not get dizzy. But that’s the difference between you and me. I’m aware of when I am spinning and can admit when I am doing it without my whole argument falling apart, because I’m not an extremist. I don’t hate the Alliance. I can acknowledge the many faults of the Horde.

Many edits because I accidentally deleted this post and had to undo the deletion. Also typos and rewording.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

Tyrande telling you to save nightborne citizens being a good deed doesn’t negate Liadrin’s good deed of doing it too. What kind of logic is that? It just means both of them did a good deed.

[Rathi-echo-isles (Rathi)]

I got caught up in trying to match spin for spin, but this is exactly right. Both Horde and Alliance did a good deed.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

I would agree with that if he was doing it for Jaina’s or Alliance’s sake.
He wasn’t.
He objected to the practice of mind control. Jaina or Alliance were never once mentioned by him or any other.

Also, about this point in particular, if objecting to mind control was Baine’s only motivation, then he had no need to deliver Derek anywhere. All he’d have to do is free him from the cage and that would be the end of it. Instead, he chose to steal one of Sylvanas’s own ships so it could be sailed to a location so that he could safely return Derek to his family. That’s above and beyond merely stopping mind control from going on. That’s Baine showing compassion for a victim and doing what he thought was right, even though militarily he was doing nothing but harming the horde war effort.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

And yet Nightborne want to kill me despite thanking me last expansion.
The whole reason being ‘tyrande was mean’.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

This is irrelevant to the point.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

which point? Why Nightborne are stabbing one side over the other in the back?

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

Are you kidding me?

[Anelaan-wyrmrest-accord (Anelaan)]

Well this thread is certainly going places.

Warm places, filled with fire and brimstone.

[Rathi-echo-isles (Rathi)]

Maybe this could have been perceived as Horde bias if Turalyon and Alleria didn’t also want to kill the Horde player despite the aid they provided on their campaign. Both sides got equal treatment here.

[Yvenathilm-fenris (Yvenathilm)]

Thalyssra is the one suggesting peace with the Alliance on the Horde side during the Nazjatar Patch. Nathanos and Sylvanas are the ones wanting to kill you not the Nightborne.

[Lenastus-zuljin (Lenastus)]

so let me get this straight, you think that the horde faction doesn’t deserve to get punished for the atrocities they commited despite the fact they are doing it over and over again when we already dismantled entire organizations that did far more less?

At least in my case, i am not saying that the horde experience is better, i think that both sides got treated poorly by blizzard.
at least in the player department

however i still think that horde,as a story faction get treated “better” simply because they can apparently be both good and evil, commit atrocities and still not face any consequences for the crap they do.

The horde as a faction yes. They do deserve punishment. The horde as a player no.

Last i knew, the horde as a faction didn’t existed for real but the player yes. You are talking like the horde was existing for real. Like if Sylvanas was lucky to have blizzard bias. She do not exist for real. She only exist for the player experience. If the player dont get to feel that ‘‘bias’’ and only the story faction do, does it really exist???

Yeah the horde as a story faction may or may not have it better. But the horde as a player does not and do not deserve to be punished just because you feel that character that does not exist for real need to learn justice… The story must exist to make the player experience better, not make lesson to character that does not even exist.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

The Darkspear Rebellion/Siege of Orgrimmar all happened over the course of months, yes, but you weren’t stuck doing fetch quests for Vol’jin the whole time.

Instead Alliance players were stuck in the hot desert with sand everywhere murdering orcs for a guy who clearly hated them.

Well you’re really working more for SI:7 as they destabilize Garrosh, since you never actually have to meet personally with Vol’jin. I think they could probably get more buy in from Horde players if “neutral” content involved you speaking entirely with other Horde characters without ever actually having to interact with Humans, Night Elves, etc.

You don’t have to talk to Thrall in the opening scenario. As Alliance, you only have to talk to Maraad and Khadgar. And you only have to talk to Doomhamer in order to kill him.

You still work with Thrall in the opening. If I recall right, it’s been years so I may be misremembering, he also bails you out of getting dumpstered on by Garrosh later in Nagrand regardless of faction. And you don’t kill Doomhammer, you fight alongside him later at Talador and he dies fighting Blackhand IIRC. I get them mixed up a lot too.

Yes you ‘work with Thrall’ in that Thrall is one of the many NPCs physically present. You don’t actually have to interact with him.

And yeah, I got Blackhand and Doomhamer confused, but I went back and looked at it and you actually don’t talk to Doomhamer either and he shows up in a cut scene. Again, he’s one of the NPCs present, but you never actually have to interact with him.

Which is even crazier considering you’re on the orc homeworld.

The Army of the Light doesn’t just have a former Alliance character, it has a couple of very important Alliance character (who never formally left the Alliance) as its faction leaders

Leaders who were so far removed from the current Alliance one of them welcomes you with open arms upon seeing you, regardless of your race and faction. They are only retroactively members of the Alliance that was formed after WC3.

Yeah, there’s timey wimey stuff involved, but the last time we saw them, they were pretty much Alliance. And the next time we see them, they go back to being Alliance.

It feels less like the writers took the time apart into account and just wrote out the cutscenes, quests, etc and figured it’d be too much trouble trying to adapt it to take orcs, trolls, goblins, etc into account. So it’s just a generic Alliance hero story.

Because most of the order hall themes/stories work better when you look at them that way.

And that’s after your Horde character spent time in their Alliance race themed order halls, working to become head of some mostly Night Elf/Draenei/Humans organization.

Off the top of my head, the Paladin and Priest order halls are highly dominated by standard generic Stormwind human themes with every other race serving as props. Similarly the Mage and Druid halls are heavily influenced by Dalaran and the Night Elves. These four have their roots thoroughly planted in Alliance cultures or former organizations. Every other order hall is either new or has more neutral beginnings. Regardless, they weren’t a part of the factions at the time, even if you did work with people who were, such as Liadrin and Shaw.

The Trueshot Lodge (Hunter) is also overwhelmingly Night Elf in style since it was built by a secret group of Night Elves who traveled to High Mountain to build it. The Hall of Shadows (Rogue) is likewise mostly human, especially the council. I mean it’s cool they let some other races in there.

And I say this because the only really Horde themed order hall is the Shaman one.

Overall, the argument that any one expansion in a post-Cataclysm world is wholly dominated by one faction is pointless when it’s broken down bit-by-bit. Instead of pointing at the other faction and claiming fault for biases or too much exposure, the writers are where the blame should rest, and people who remain exclusive to a single faction should educate themselves of what the other faction’s grievances with the story are.
TLDR everything sucks

I agree up to a point. I’m not mad at Alliance players. I understand many of their frustrations, especially when it comes to being cast as the put upon heroes who can never do unto others as have been done unto them because of the “You’ll become just as bad as they are,” trope.

It can, however, be frustrating to see how whenever a Horde character gets more than a couple speaking lines or a supporting role, it’s considered hoard bias or a unique example of the narrative breaking down because, “that character can’t be neutral!”. Or not even a Horde character. Just a character that happens to be an Orc, Goblin, Troll, or Forsaken being in charge.

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

The horde as a faction yes. They do deserve punishment. The horde as a player no.

Yeah the horde as a story faction may or may not have it better. But the horde as a player does not and do not deserve to be punished just because you feel that character that does not exist for real need to learn justice… The story must exist to make the player experience better, not make lesson to character that does not even exist.

Then we completely agree, amazing. (if that sound as sarcasm, it wasn’t)
We can also agree that the story sucks for both sides and that blizzard wrote themselves in a corner. because they are garbage writters. amen

[Lenastus-zuljin (Lenastus)]

No but your faction did.
So its only for that my faction destroys one thing of yours for once.

Yeah only if the horde is allow to completely beat the alliance army,walk in one of their city only to see one of your leader destroying your city.

I have a long list of places destroyed by the Horde and not a single place that I have destroyed of yours except maybe for Taurajo.

And that long list will only show how much city the alliance had more than the horde for the 3 first expansion.

And Horde are genocidal monsters that will never change. Fact. Prove me wrong.

So you can show me wrong and are trying to change the subject? I get it.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

Thalyssra is the one suggesting peace with the Alliance on the Horde side during the Nazjatar Patch. Nathanos and Sylvanas are the ones wanting to kill you not the Nightborne.

She belongs to the same faction and has been trying to kill Alliance for the past year. I don’t care she is shifting her tune after losing all her advantages.

[Lenastus-zuljin (Lenastus)]

Then we completely agree, amazing. (if that sound as sarcasm, it wasn’t)
We can also agree that the story sucks for both sides and that blizzard wrote themselves in a corner. because they are garbage writters. amen

Yep that what i’ve always been saying. When i say that the alliance had it or it better, is not that i mean that the overall game is alliance favoured. Just that both had thing that the other side could envy because how bad both side have it.

As for Sylvanas ( kind of the topic here), if we were talking like WoW story existed for real, yeah she should get killed for what she’s done. But again, as a horde player, i dont have much original leader. Most of the original leader have been take out for secondary character. Sylvanas is one of the last horde leader that was important for her people since the rts game and one of the few horde leader that have the power to fight the alliance leader since she is not another warrior or archer. I liked her when she wasn’t the warchief. Of course she did bad thing but at least we could argue that it was for her people. Right now she is just evil for the sake of being evil. I just want her to go back as being the forsaken leader only and getting the kind of interaction that she had with Lorthemar in SoO.

[Droité-tanaris (Droité)]

Its easier for me to not sweat the loss of Sylvanas. Due to her never really growing out of the “Alliance of Convenience with the Primitive Races of the Horde” motif … I never really considered her a true member of the Horde (Gallywix is also in this vein). She USES the Horde … but it always has been kept ambiguous how much she’s actually been a part of it. On a similar vein … I want Saurfang to be punished (but live) through this expansion. As many Doomhammer parallels he may have, its time an Old Orc actually not get to escape the consequences of his mistakes.

Thrall returning as HORDE character; Rokhan finally being given official leader of the Darkspear (with a new Model to match); Rexxar FINALLY fully joining the faction as a leader; and Vol’jin coming back (either alive or as a new Loa) would easily overcome the loss of Sylvie for me. If Gazlowe (the ORIGINAL Horde Gob) took control of the Cartel … things would be even better. Then … I’ll just cross my fingers and wait to see what I hope happens with a specific edgy bearded Forsaken to see if his potential as a Forsaken leader is still intact enough to be worth salvaging.

[Deathisfinal-gnomeregan (Deathisfinal)]

I never really considered her a true member of the Horde

If it wasn’t for Sylvanas there would be no Horde.

[Droité-tanaris (Droité)]

I never really considered her a true member of the Horde

If it wasn’t for Sylvanas there would be no Horde.

We’ll see wont we … Considering Vol’jin’s death was manufactured we truly have no idea how things would have played out if some “thing” hadn’t severed his connections to his own Loa (and ensured his death). He may have very well been forced to order a retreat … making Sylvie rather irrelevant.