The Sylvanas comparison regarding trauma and insanity is actually funny to think about, because with the way the game has laid it out… their situations are opposite what you’d think.
IIRC, Jaina didn’t go straight for Orgrimmar in a passion-fueled craze. She went back to Dalaran and researched how to use the focusing iris, which makes it a premeditated act. I struggle to see how the temporary insanity defense would apply there because of that.
But Blizzard’s way of describing shattered souls was that you were always experiencing the moment of your trauma, unable to escape or settle from the moment of your death. I’d think that would make an insanity plea MORE plausible in her case, because it wasn’t temporary; it was indefinite. All 20ish years or so of her undeath.
Immy, come on brother.
When the quest detects that you’re horde, Alliance npcs quip snipe at you. This has been happening since at least Legion. It happens in this expansion.
They could write some snipe quips that we could fire at them.
I finally saw it from the Alliance’s perspective and between what I saw when playing the quest and the stance that Blizz has taken consistently since then, no she didn’t?
The consistent hardline stance that blizz has had regarding this is that she merely imprisoned the Blood Elves and that the killings were a glitch. Regardless of your stance on this narratively, it’s the current state of the canon.
If you want to talk about war crimes, look at Vereesa, who sent us to kill shopkeepers for the “crime” of not wanting to be imprisoned within the Violet Hold.
Besides, even if she had done what was originally seen in the glitch, she’s more than redeemed herself with her constant efforts to help save the planet.
While bad, this lacks the proper context. Her actions to help the Orcs of Orgrimmar led to the death of her father - something we see he still struggling to deal with by the time of BfA. Thrall, the former leader of these Orcs, disregarded her concerns about Garrosh - Garrosh then bombed Theramore and killed plenty of people who were close to her.
I’d argue that (especially given that she was talked down from it), this is easily defensible under the defense of temporary insanity.
That wasn’t even a murder. The Alliance literally asked Rastakhan (who had been aiding the Horde) to stand down, and he refused. It wasn’t like they stormed the capital for the sole purpose of killing Rastakhan at any cost.
This is also without acknowledging that unless you play both sides of Dazar’alor, you won’t realize how intentionally misleading the framing of the raid is. The “What the other side did” sections misrepresent the actual events as they’re being filtered through the lens of an unreliable narrator.
True, but overall, Jaina has less innocent blood on her hands than someone like Illidan, pretty much any Orc that was in the Old Horde before joining Thrall, AU Grom, or anyone else who’s been a villain before being redeemed.
You shouldn’t, but the developers refuse to put any personal responsibility on Jaina or have her suffer any real ramifications for her transgressions against the Horde.
In Battle for Azeroth, one of the instances that Jaina was taken to task for her role in the Purge of Dalaran was by Magister Halthorel who was framed by the writers as a mustache-twirling villain consorting with Sylvanas to get vengeance against Jaina, while she so selflessly put herself at risk to save Baine.
Shadows Rising: Talanji, fresh from losing her father in the Battle of Dazar’alor pushes for vengeance against Jaina for orchestrating the attack, only to be denied by the Horde Council. Talanji’s character arc in the novel has her cast aside her call for vengeance to put the security of her people first. Talanji can’t have it both.
Bad news if you’re a Horde character with a legitimate gripe against the Alliance: you will be characterized as nefarious and prideful for any attempt to make good on your call for vengeance.
While I understand the frustration with this, this was pushed on both sides.
Tyrande’s revenge against Sylvanas and the horde was treated as bad thing and destructive for example, and that she should search for renewal.
While it was a character arc that I think it works, it also landed bad for some players from what i’ve seen.
The other aspect with jaina, is that writing wise she had her punishment period, but not at the hands of the horde, but at the hands of the Kultirans, where she was left in a sort of purgatory place made with drust magic, and who knows how much time was that. You really dont give the same character 2 prison arcs. Of course, this means nothing for the horde, but again, just like sylvanas wasnt dealt with by the night elves or the alliance or even the horde (unless you count Tyrande picking up the sentence as that).
Thing is, no retribution is ever happening for the 4th war on either side besides alliance helping clean up lordaeron and then the forsaken giving out Gilneas to the alliance. Any meaningful demmand for retribution or reparations would just jumpstart another war.
I’ve said this before, but the focus really wasn’t where it should have been concerning Jaina’s trauma in BfA. For ten years this character was defined by her hatred of the Horde - the injustices she’d suffered at its hands, her retribution, her total disillusionment in its capacity for good, the hardening of her heart - and her emotional healing and mental rebalancing came from reconciliation with her regrets in defending the Horde from Daelin, Varian, Theramore…
… only for Baine to drop off her zombie brother and her to become a Horde quest giver again. It doesn’t follow. Her sixth and presumably final flip-flop on the Horde shouldn’t have just been a side effect of magical therapy in Thros. There was a lot to work through there, on her part as well as theirs.
I’d have to find the original tweet but people wildly took a quote about an actual bug (jaina only killing) and headcanon’d it into being her being some sort of saint (she still kills in the current game)
We know she killed Aethas’ bodyguard offhand just for taking up a defensive stance when someone violently burst into the room, we know she personally killed some of Magistor Hathorel’s friends, we know she empowered Veressa to do all she did and never once showed contrition/remorse over it, we know she murdered Rastakhan.
Her contrition arc should have been more than “oh, I forgave myself”, especially when her downward spiral happened after she and Varian ripped up Theramore’s alleged “neutrality” and invaded the horde just to slake his ego.
I’d say it counts since she’s the leader of the night elven people, and comparable would be her judged or at least resolving the past with Lor’themar or at least Aethas.
Yeah, best I recall it was a Tumblr post by an ex-dev and that it didn’t say as much as people claim. And I’m open to being wrong, just one of those things that every time I ask for the source I get, ‘I need to look it up’, lol. But at the same time it’ll get parroted like gospel as though Metzen said it in a video.
Just like the whole ‘the mana bomb destroyed other worlds’ claim people sometimes make, which is just wholly untrue.
I agree that it seems clear that Blizzard will do everything they can to give Jaina a pass on what she did. As I’ve said, it amazes me the blizzard thinks that Jaina being unrepentant, over stuff they can only retcon so much, is better than having her repentant have a clean slate.
The irony is that, I think a lot of the people trying to excuse Jaina are also Sylvanas haters. I see every indication that Sylvanas is going to get a similar treatment. Except that Sylvanas will have the advantage of having atoned and moved on while Jaina will always have this hanging around her neck.
And, on the other side, the Horde forgetting about the attempted genocide and purge the instant she stops telling them how much she hates them is jarring. Pretty much what the OP was complaining about.
Do we even know if that is a legitimate defense in Horde or Alliance law? Bc if it is, I would think a lot of characters could get off on that defense.
Do we have an Alliance or Horde lawyer in the house?
Or the entire thing was as was the original intent a “grey” event. And both sides have basically decided Garrosh was ultimately responsible for it. Like, Jaina was right that Sunreavers had participated and stole the bell and broke neutrality. Which would be the second incident that happened. Hell, Lother’mar committed his own little pogrom on the pretext he needed to keep his kingdom unified.
Well, we know Christie Golden consulted the post-Nuremberg Geneva Convention when she put Garrosh on trial, which ratified collective punishment as a war crime. Even the new Chronicle, shoddy as it is, explicitly states that Jaina punished the many for the actions of a few. In the unlikely event she’s ever made to legally answer for her purge, she’d do well to demand extradition to Pandaria and trust the August Celestials to rig her jury like they did Garrosh’s.
Personally I do think the Horde is in the wrong with it, heck they should be blame for Jaina finally breaking and wanting to wipe them out. The story on the other hand has for the most part not made them as at fault/basically blames everything on Garrosh.
So if you or anyone else wants Jaina’s pound of flesh, I saw we do the same for the Horde and we can see if anyone else is left for the Horde when all is said and done.
Like if Jaina has to apologize/be contrite for The Purge of Dalaran. How much more should the Horde for the destruction of Theramore and all their committed genocides.