Zerde: Here’s why unambiguously genocidal dwarves massacring innocents to build a colony is cool, great, and should be done more often.
Also Zerde: Baine is an unredeemable war criminal.
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I didnt say iredeemable, but he is culpable considering he followed not one, but two genocidal maniacs. And if the goal is justice then let the Alliance gets it justice as well.
Or are we going to ignore how much less powerful the Horde would be without his and the tauren’s support?
Also, Chronicles has effectively made Jaina’s part in the Purge even less brutal. Her orders were to exile the Blood elves.
No she doesnt and I will always be 100% glad for it. With any luck she will be one of the few characters in Warcraft who will simple get to die peacefully of old age.
Garrosh was not blindly followed.
Also, Garrosh’ war was absolutely legitimate in the beginning, sadly his plot changed following Theramore’s destruction. Also, the way he destroyed Theramore can definitely be criticized.
Following Sylvanas was stupid from the get go, because Blizzard never really gave a reason why any other Horde races would follow Sylvanas after burning Teldrassil. They made a decent argument for capturing Teldrassil and forcing the Alliance into a more permanent treaty so we don’t get another gung-ho destroy the Horde Warchief because we are angy while the Legion invades our planet, but once the burning happened every other Horde race leader would, realistically, just turn around and leave Sylvanas and her loyalists to their deaths.
Battle for Azeroth was so stupid. But most faction conflicts are, they make absolutely no sense considering the mix up of races and cultures on both sides.
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Cata Garrosh, absolutely.
Varian: invades the Horde due to a literal tantrum, kidnaps Thrall for kicks after Thrall calms down tensions.
Garrosh: invades the Nelves due to a resource crisis the Alliance refuses to help with despite being a massive part of why it’s such a bad crisis.
Varian: “That’s some good Genocide, Twinbraid, have a promotion”
Garrosh: “Was my command to murder innocents, Krom’gar?”
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This is literally no longer the story and ever action of Varian has been because Garrosh wanted all of Ashenvale for himself.
As for Thrall, he was still the one who put Garrosh on the throne. He was reponsible for a good chunk of problems that plague the world and he should have gone back to being warchief the moment Deathwing was killed. His contribution as a shaman was negligable and he would have helped the world more by taking back the reigns of the Horde. Horde pride ba damned.
is this the old “Chronicles called garrosh a warmonger so therefore Varian did nothing wrong ever” line again?
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He was a warmonger. Like even Varian from Shattering mellows out thanks to Jaina throwing the Defias at his face. There is no lore that anything Varian has ever done was for conquest sake or a “tantrum” and every lore hence forth making Garrosh more and more of a warmonger.
Hell, Varian will always be treated as a hero and Garrosh as a villain. Like this isnt even a debate.
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I am not even thinking about what the Alliance otherwise did.
it is more so that the Horde was put in a precarious position after the Cataclysm.
I am entirely sorry that some people do not feel the same, I hope you never ever become leaders of other people, ever.
But Garrosh was put in charge at a moment where his people was nearing famine, he saw desperation, frustration, anger. The only way this could be solved, was if the Alliance resumed trade, but the Alliance did not resume trade, because the Horde was blamed for the Wrath Gate Incident - which is wild.
Attempts at negotiations ended up in failure due to a cult dressing up and pretending to be Horde, and well, Garrosh’ hand was eventually forced. He needed to do something to grab land where the Horde could get food and other ressources.
Cata probably has one of the best setups for the most sensibly waged war ever. Garrosh went crazy though, which is a shame.
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Those responsible on the Horde were actually punished.
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Jaina should die for her numerous crimes against the Zandalari and blood elves.
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We all should just ignore Zerde since it is obvious he argues to absolve the Alliance of all the guilt.
Sigh, we if we ever get a Warchief we need that Garrosh Horde Energy back… without the genocide and probably be not just powerful to back up his mocksy as an NPC but a smart leader.
If not… then at least, I want to see this Garrosh Horde energy in these new Council theme going on in the story moving forward.
Crossing fingers on the end product with Silvermoon and Horde story bits coming soon!
Yeah I know I know… to not let my hopes up or expect anything beyond what’s been said, just let me have this hopium… Story in TWW was really good and I love it I just can’t help the hopium! 
Reading through Play nice, I think I’m going to continue relying on my own sense of morality rather than accepting the moral framing of the WoW devs of that era.
King Exterminate-the-brutes absolutely sucked up until just before Legion. He was every bit Garrosh’s foil up until MoP.
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Varian will never be anything more than a glorified definition of a toxic man child regardless of how zealously some people defend him
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The alt-history where Loraedon held off the scourge had Varian coup the Alliance government and go full self-destructive fascist.
Varian for most of his run was Garrosh but with a son with a moral compass holding him back from his worst impulses. Garrosh’s equivalents were too busy saving the world or being depressed about his son’s death to prevent his downward spiral.
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You make it sound like the current devs have decided “no our past morality for the game is wrong”. Heck if anything Varian continues to be considered a hero with Shadowlands(one of the first expansions where old Blizzard had less influence) as a guide for Anduin.
What an idiotic take. Yes he was Garrosh foil. He is what Garrosh could have been if Garrosh actually listen to other and focused on peace. Hell, you even mis remember MoP’s ending:
Both Vol’jin and Baine were there willing to give him council. Hell, even Sylvanas cautioned him against war. He ignored everyone.
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Was literally holding the world together.
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Current devs wrote Varian as being willing to take over the Alliance in a fascist coup for not wanting to go full Daelin in a scenario where the Alliance was less disrupted by the Scourge.
His people were starving, partially due to the actions of the Alliance, Tyrande was gloating about letting the orcs starve to death despite Hyjal, the recent joint Northrend expedition and her explicitly going to Saurfang for help with the AQ war.
Somehow this is morally worse than going to war out of a tantrum or rewarding dwarves for their A+ job genociding entire tribes in times of peace.
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An ALTERNATE timeline where both factions went full on Nutso and have nothing to do with our timeline. So not Mainline Varian or what mainline Varian represents.(this would be the same as claiming the factions are both warmongering idiots that will end up destroying Azeroth itself)
There were literally other shamans keeping Azeroth together. Hell, Garrosj actions might have upset the balance more then whatever Thrall could have done as an individual shaman helping the world(see Garrosj summoning Molten Elementals)
Dude that is even true. Hell, Jaina(or Thrall) even mentions how the night elves are not in the habit of letting children starve and trade was cut off due(at least back in The Shattering) due to the Twilight Hammer’s sabotage.
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This is an interesting set of standards to apply to characters. Was humanity’s contribution to defending Azeroth for the First and Second War negligible because the Night Elves over on Kalimdor could have stopped the Horde? Hell, humanity might have just made things worse considering it was a human (Medivh) who summoned the Horde to Azeroth in the first place.
Can we blame Varian for Garrosh escaping to alternate Draenor and causing another Burning Legion invasion since he stopped Thrall from killing Garrosh?
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