I am pretty sure I have gone over this(both for Varian and Wrathion). Yes, you can blame Varian for letting Garrosh live. BUT the flip side is he(and Wrathion) get credit for ending the Legion. I mean without this pivotal decision the Legion may not have been defeated in time before Sargeras created his Dark Pantheon and likely destroy the universe.(and also they would get credit for all the worlds we saved because we stop the Legion sooner then later)
The Alliance/Stormwind was fighting for its survival. It wasnt exactly fighting âfor Azerothâ. Having said that, the Alliance was altruistic enough to pursue the Horde beyond the dark portal not just for the practical goal of preventing a resuregent Horde to get fat on some alien world but also to protect any other worlds out there from suffering as they had.
So, canât you credit Thrall by this same logic? If he hadnât put in Garrosh as Warchief, we wouldnât have gotten to that point in the first place.
Hell, can we credit Gulâdan for ending the Legion, considering he was a critical component in the chain of events that led to Varian letting Garrosh live?
How about Sargeras? If he hadnât corrupted the Eredar, we wouldnât have gotten to that point either. Does Sargeras get credit for all the worlds saved from the Legion, because he set in motion the chain of events that ended the Legion?
Heroes of the universe, the Void Lords, for inspiring Sargeras to corrupt the Eredar so that we could later on end the Legion.
The Horde went nutzo because Varian nuked Kalimdor out of spite after losing (note how there are no nelf members of the âGlorious allianceâ).
As far as we know, the only hinge point is the Alliance being in a stronger position in WC3 to where they could prosecute a war, thatâs it.
Thrall/Jaina having a higher opinion of the Allianceâs morality than what it deserves, shocking. Tyrande said what she said, and did what she did regardless. Nothing changed that.
This is literally not what happened! We dont even know what happened:
Once a weak Alliance tried to take it from us. No one remembers how it started, for that was long ago.
All we know the Alliance did start it. We know also some in the Alliance did overthrow those wanted peace only. We dont know if Alternate Varian was in on it or even much of anything about AU Varian. Not that it matters. They are alternate version for a reason(considering this timeline has the scourge defeat I think Arthas might have been the one who killed off Terenas/other peace inclined leaders and Varian went along with Arthas once he focused on defeating the Horde). They have no impact on us or our current timeline.
When people think of Varian, its MU Varian we think of in the same vein that people think of MU Garrosh and not all the other timelines where Garrosh turn out to be a good leader.
There is NOTHING anywhere that states Tyrande wanted children to starve and everything stating relations soured because of the Butchering of elves by Twilight Hammer.
Honestly, Nerâzhul should get credit for destroying the Legion. If he hadnât triggered the Third War then Illidan wouldâve never been freed and then where would be we?
In case it wasnât clear, this is sarcasm to demonstrate how ludicrous your logic is.
Then I guess Varian shouldnt be blame as well for his decision to free Garrosh and ultimately cause the chain of events that lead to the Legion invasion.
So either Varian should be blame for the invasion and be credited for the Legionâs defeat or he shouldnât be blame for choice leading to the Legion invasion. Which is it? Either answer is acceptable as far as I am concerned.
Actually, the Jailer should get the credit for defeating the Legion.
After all, everything from the creation of the legion to the downfall of Sargeras had been carefully planned by him.
Remember, he was able to predict that Sargeras was going to stab Azeroth without destroying it down to the moment, but couldnât anticipate the MawmawWalkers beating the brakes off of him, despite all of his schemes involving them up until that point.
No, trades were IN FACT cut off because the Night Elves blamed the Horde for the forsaken betrayal at the Wrath Gate.
This along with the Catalysm lead to a bunch of problems where the orcs started facing problems with ressources, among these lack of ressources being food, which leads to another terrible events, such as the flaying of night elves in Ashenvale, because people are obviously not going to be very happy with 1. starving to death and 2. it being the consequence of you being falsely accused of something you had no hand in whatsoever.
The attempts at reestablishing trades, however, were indeed sabotaged by twillightâs hammer.
But trades were shut down initially because the Night Elves blamed the Horde for the Wrath Gate incident.
I would assume that you, Zerde, never decided to read a story involving a Horde leader because of your Alliance fanaticism - sadly, that puts you in a position where you can not, in fact, discuss the World of Warcraft lore in a reasonable sense, because you choose not to get a full perspective.
Some of us are actually interested in the entirety of the lore, rather than just a one-sided perspective.
And you know what happened? There was an AGREEMENT after that. If said agreement involved no further trade then it was an agreement the Horde has freely agreed to. Blaming the Night elves for the incompetence of the Horde for working with a Dreadlord(not to mention their own part in developing a plague) is idiotic.
You are right I was mistake on this. But really it was just a NEW reason to stop any trade all. Need I remind you the night elves had spent all that time fighting the Horde for Ashenvale. If anything it is a suprise there was any trade at all considering the Horde was actively trying to take land(which they ruined) from the night elves.(the book even mentions Warsong Gulch was an active warzone until Wrath cause both sides to have a treaty)
The fact the night elves were still willing to re establish trade at all shows how they were still not willing to let children starve. Even children of their enemies.
I have nearly every warcraft book and while the Horde can have BRIEF moments of heroism, alot of its actions during WoW era has been them repeating mistake after mistake and at least 3/5 of their âcoreâ racial leaders being villanous to the point we have seen two of them become raid bosses(and who knows what will happen to Gallewix soon)
Maybe the Alliance are not perfect, but compared to the Horde, it is veritably angelic.
You mean the people who destroyed Bael Modan? It was war and while his reasons were abit tainted those goblins were mining resources for the Horde war machine.(and like it or not the Horde/Alliance do not have rules against attacking each others workers)
And they went in separate tangents. Varian could have continued the war and likely could have defeated the Horde but at too great a cost for his people. Something Garrosh could never understand.
We killed them. In Siege of Orgrimmar. Thereâs an entire raid which the entire point is to kill Garrosh and his loyalists. Itâs literally in the game to be played RIGHT NOW if you choose to do so. You invade the capital city of the Horde to kill Garroshâs loyalists. I donât know what else you can do to punish them. Revive the guys so you can kill them again?
Thatâs a dilemma. Can you fully blame Thrall for something that Garrosh did after so many years that he was Warchief? When does it stop? Blaming Medivh as well for opening the dark portal ergo guilty of Garroshâs crimes because he allowed Thrall to exist in Azeroth which ended up with Garrosh in power?
Paraphrasing Thrallâs momma, âYou might have been the one to put him in power, but he chose what to do with that power.â
Sure, Thrall isnât guilt free but saying heâs equally to blame is just ridiculous. Unsurprising coming from you, though.
Ah I see, so Thrall is to blame but Varian is absolved of the same âcrimeâ. Clearly an unbiased judgement.
JAINA LITERALLY SAYS âDISMANTLE THE HORDEâ, WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT LMAO
Horde characters literally invade their own capital to get rid of the tyrant and she wants to use this moment to betray the truce they did. Not only that is completely wrong from a moral point of view, but also just laughable from a combat one. They are up against some of the most fearsome fighters in Warcraft history and Jaina thinks they can do anything. The second Varian raised that sword against VolâJin, Sylvanas would have an arrow through his neck. Dismantle the Horde my ***, try dismantling deez instead.
Just effing delusional talk right there.
If this was a story about the Horde attacking Alliance miners youâd be with a torch and pitchfork in hand, screaming bloody murder and validating any kind of retaliation from the Alliance, despite how disproportional it would be.
Lol. Lmao even. KEKW if youâd be so inclined.
Man, I just canât take any discussion with you seriously. Itâs one-sided to the point of comedy.
Not all of them. Again the Horde was following Garrosh long after Theramore and it only decided to rebel when Garrosh started targetting their own people.
I can blame Thrall for not immediately taking the reign after Deathwing died. He should have let the other shamans deal with healing the earth and immediately took back control of the Horde. He effectively did it anyway but only after Garrosh caused so much damage.
Hey I said specifically he CAN be blame for the Legion if he also get credit for causing the string of event leading to its(the Legion)earlier defeat.
REREAD WHAT IT WAS ABOUT. What I was replying to was an attempt at portraying Varian as some conquest roided monster. I am not sure why you are talking about Jaina.
I literally just said both sides have been attacking each others workers since Warcraft 1 was a thing. Its a dirty tactic but this was a tactic both used.
Everyone was taking land from everyone else. Hell, the taurens were helping the Horde take land from the night elves.
On this note the Horde should have given up any and all claims to Ashenvale. Instead it continues to try and take it and to this day Ashenvale is still partly controlled by the Horde.
I mean what did you expect them to do? âOh no, our Warchief is attacking the Alliance, lets rebel against him!â
And even by that point you already had people questioning that decision, Lorthemar included if memory serves.
He was THE shaman back then. Having someone like him coordinating the healing efforts might not have been the do-all-be-all of it, but it was no less important.
âOh they messed up but helped correcting their mistakes after a lot of people died, so its fair gameâ is how this reads.
I went on a tangent with that one, but my point is: Varian might have not been a perfect mirror of Garrosh, but it was close enough that comparisons were drawn. That cinematic did him credit but the guy still has an entire ossuary in his wardrobe.
I expected them to have put their foot down immediately instead of just agreeing to go to war. This is the reason the warchief system needed to be abolish.
With the aspect power gone he didnt have some super special ability that other shaman couldnt have done. And him taking back the Horde would have been more important consider it means less shamans from both sides killing each other!
More like he didnt have any idea him not having Garrosh executed immediately could lead to the Legion return. But if he gets blamed for something that no one could have predicted he should get credit as well.
What ossuary? The dude conduct MoP as close to a clean war as he possibly could.
In any case, there is a reason MU Varian will always be portrayed in a positive light and Garrosh as the villain of the story.
The entirety of pre-vanilla is both sides conquering each other lands. Personally I am sure the Alliance will quite literally give back the Barrens to the Horde if the Horde left Ashenvale.
